https://www.pokernews.com/news/2023/...ller-43831.htm

It seems like the WSOP did the honorable thing here and nobody will contest their decision, but what if Koon wanted a refund while only bagging half the average chip stack, or less? Where exactly do you draw the line? What if he asked for a refund for another reason like his wife was very sick and he was worried about her? Or what if this was a $1500 donkament where not everyone knows everyone else or has a social media presence? While today's situation seems like it will avoid too much controversy, it certainly creates a slippery slope the next time an expecting father or someone else for a different justifiable reason asks for a Day 2 refund.

It doesn’t create a slippery slope. It’s within the discretion of the TD. They decided to grant the request.

And yes, having an above-par stack into Day 2 probably makes the TD decision easier. If Koon had bagged crumbs on Day 1, might not get refund request idk.

With him having above starting stack and late reg not being over I think this is a non issue completely.

Is he even married? Is his wife even pregnant? Is it his child?

Where do we draw the line.

The fact that it comes down to the discretion means it does create a slippery slope. None of us have idea where the line is draw..

What is it was his sister going into labor? What is he had 1.2 million instead of 1.7 million? Etc etc

Don’t really see a problem with it. If he’s under starting should have to pay a penalty to the pool of some kind I’d imagine.

above avg stack and later reg still open makes the decision seem fine

but I def see why people think this could potentially have been an issue

In contrast to Shaun Deeb, who missed the birth of his child to play a $1050 buy-in during WCOOP

He requested a refund for his buy-in but they wouldn’t.

Source?

Guessing it’s a joke

Correct!

Oh. Ha!

What was average stack?

If you have above starting stack, there should be no problem getting a refund before end of late reg.

If below, I think you should still get a refund in proportion to your stack.
E.g 75% of starting stack = 75% refund before end of late reg.

It’s the opposite. Because if someone gives a bullshit reason, the TD doesn’t have to consult some table. They can make the decision based off the reputation of the person and the reasonableness of the request.

I do agree with the premise of what OP is saying and how it relates to celebrity culture and favouritism towards certain big name players but at the same time if you are a poker celeb with a clean track record your request in this situation should be held at a much higher regard. I think this type of scenario should be talked about more and a rule put in place that if you can show proof of a birth/death certificate along with average or above chip count that you can get a refund on your buyin. Even if you are say 50% lower than average chip stack you can get 50% of your buyin refunded (equity buyin chop) if you can show proof of a legitimate reason you had to leave the tournament.

The baby isn’t born yet. The birth certificate won’t be issued for weeks. So what’s the plan?

Did you want him to facetime with his wifes vagina? I mean would be pretty hard/absurd to lie about this,give the guy a break

I don’t. I’m responding to the poster asking for birth/death certificates, which is crazy town.

I think this is fine obviously given the circumstances, but I was a little surprised to read 'Issuing a refund before the end of registration is clearly within the discretion of tournament officials and common practice at WSOP.' I've never played in WSOP but I would have assumed it was a 'no refunds, if you have an issue that's your problem' kind of situation. Does anyone know of other circumstances where this has happened? If you lose half your stack before the emergency/issue comes up, do they do partial refunds? Just curious about how that works given it's apparently a common thing.

I don't think there should be a need to a give an explanation for why you want a refund before the end of late reg.

50% of starting stack is worth more than 50% of your starting ICM-EV.
So the other players are getting some free ICM-EV when you refund, so there is no reason for them to complain.

*************

Simple simulation: 10 player tournament where starting ICM-EV is $10.

You are down to 50% of starting stack and your ICM-EV is now $5.24.

So by getting a 50% refund you are effectively paying a 5% penalty in this example.

It isn't a slippery slope (wrong verbiage). It is a gray area. It means there are many factors involved and there is no clear guidelines.

The rules for refunds are that it is up to the Tournament Director. In this case, the TD looked at the fact that he had an above average stack and registration was still open. So the decision was fairly straightforward. There was no conceivable angle he could be running here.

Does it help that he was a well known name with a fairly clean reputation? Of course. Reputation always matters in gray area type situations. In any situation there will be people who have a poor reputation who might not get the benefit of the doubt. That is on them though. Bad reputations require some actions by the person involved.

That is why smart people take extra measures to maintain their reputation. They are willing to pass up small advantages in situations that are less than clear, even if it isn't their fault. They can see that reputation matters in the long run more than an advantage in a single pot.

Most slippery slope arguments fall in the face of reasonableness, i.e. if the person we give discretion to is a good person then they navigate the ethical difficulties of slippery slope problems. The problems come when they're not a good person and they do favours to their buddies and punish good people out of spite or in general find many ways to abuse their position. The key is that we need oversight and/or a reason to believe the person in charge is a good person.

Jason's a good guy, I like him, but I feel like I probably wouldn't be looking to make big money commitments if I were also in danger of having to abandon them at a moment's notice. Not like it takes a long time to cash out your chips playing cash games. My biggest issue with this is if I'd lost big pots or even busted to him on day 1 I might be a little pissed.