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King's Casino FT WSOP Circuit Main Events (Ring #11) fail King's Casino FT WSOP Circuit Main Events (Ring #11) fail

01-25-2023 , 04:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneCrazyDuck
It wasnít obviously the winner. Nobody at the table thought it was.
Oh gotcha... the word "obvious" is the operative word for the rule. Thanks.
King's Casino FT WSOP Circuit Main Events (Ring #11) fail Quote
01-25-2023 , 08:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by emebot




if casino wanted to fix the issue could give the guy ICM value of his stack but no, tournament director probably slacking somewhere in the office instead of supervising final table where the money jumps are 10k+

That's a very patronizing and condescending statement by Kings.

"I am glad to have it documented on the livestream..."

Really, so why did you immediately remove the VOD and ban everyone from chatting about it?
King's Casino FT WSOP Circuit Main Events (Ring #11) fail Quote
01-25-2023 , 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw
I once dealt a pot where the guy didnít realize he had a winner until many hands later. They asked the guy to give back the pot and he ended up complying after being threatened a ban until he paid up. That was probably the lowlight of my dealing career.
Locally that would never happen. The casino would not even bother checking tape to determine if he actually had a winner nor to reconstitute the pot size. Very very clear that issues need to be raised before the start of the next hand. I actually don't know of room without such a rule. The following 4 items comes from RRoP...

1. If an incorrect rule interpretation or decision by an employee is made in good faith, the establishment has no liability.
2. A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts (or before the game either ends or changes to another table). Otherwise, the result of a deal must stand. The first riffle of the shuffle marks the start for a deal.
3. If a pot has been incorrectly awarded and mingled with chips that were not in the pot, and the time limit for a ruling request given in the previous rule has been observed, management may determine how much was in the pot by reconstructing the betting, and then transfer that amount to the proper player.
4. To keep the action moving, it is possible that a game may be asked to continue even though a decision is delayed. The delay could be to check the overhead camera tape, get the shift supervisor to give the ruling, or for some other good reason. In such circumstances, a pot or portion of it may be impounded by the house while the decision is pending.

There could be argument on when the next hand starts (all I am going to say is many dealers don't know this OR consistently violate it when they get pushed /offrant) but many hands later would not be part of that argument.
King's Casino FT WSOP Circuit Main Events (Ring #11) fail Quote
01-25-2023 , 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist
Oh gotcha... the word "obvious" is the operative word for the rule. Thanks.
The "obvious" is not the key. It is TDA rule 22.

"22: Disputed Hands and Pots

The reading of a tabled hand may be disputed until the next hand begins (see Rule 23). Accounting errors in calculating and awarding the pot may be disputed until substantial action occurs on the next hand. If a hand finishes during a break, the right to any dispute ends 1 minute after the pot is awarded."
King's Casino FT WSOP Circuit Main Events (Ring #11) fail Quote
01-26-2023 , 01:09 PM
It's a **** up from the dealer and every player at the table. She is a fantastic dealer and I really hope she doesn't get into any trouble.

The casino doesn't owe the player anything. Mistakes happen and he should have spotted it, along with every other player at the table.

As others have said, the real issue is the cover up.
King's Casino FT WSOP Circuit Main Events (Ring #11) fail Quote
01-30-2023 , 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fore
The "obvious" is not the key. It is TDA rule 22.

"22: Disputed Hands and Pots

The reading of a tabled hand may be disputed until the next hand begins (see Rule 23). Accounting errors in calculating and awarding the pot may be disputed until substantial action occurs on the next hand. If a hand finishes during a break, the right to any dispute ends 1 minute after the pot is awarded."
Yeah, I get that part. I'm just saying that the rule requiring that the cards speak when the hand is tabled should supersede the timeframe during when they may be disputed.

However, I could be wrong on this. One of the goofy baseball rules is this: if the wrong player comes up to bat, neither the official scorer nor an umpire is permitted to point this out, even if they notice it*. It's solely the responsibility of the defensive team – and only of the defensive team – to point out the mistake. If the batting team notices before the pitching team, the batting team can correct it with no penalty. And if the defensive team doesn't alert the umpire until after the incorrect batter bats, then the batter's actions plus any subsequent players' actions will stand as played.**

Anyway, perhaps it's the responsibility of the players – and only the players – to speak up about a discrepancy.

* * * *

One interesting little tidbit that came up on a recent S4Y podcast is this: with a live-streamed hand, the graphics software would (and did) automatically calculate everything as a chopped pot. When the next hand is dealt, the system would assume there are still five players, five stacks, etc. To continue the stream, someone in the control room had to manually correct everything to reflect what is actually happening at the table... before the next hand is dealt.

Now, I'm not sure this is true in terms of what happened in Rozvadov. After all, Berkey and co. may have been speaking from experience unique to their particular live-stream setup, and it's quite possible Kings used a different system. But this was a topic of discussion on the podcast, and if it's true, then someone did know of the mistake before the next hand was dealt, and simply failed to alert Kauert or anyone else.



Spoiler:
*This don't-tell rule comes up a lot in fastpitch softball, which unlike baseball, allows a player to re-enter the game after being subbed out. A common mistake is for a pinch runner to replace a batter, then the team forgets to re-enter the original player at the end of that inning.

Fast forward to the next time through the lineup: when the batter comes up, she's not officially in the game. The pitching team needs to fire one pitch, then report the mistake to the umpire. If the pitching team is correct, and neither the umpire nor OS has received the personnel change, that incorrect batter is declared out. If the batting team is also the home team, they will often grouse to their OS, "Why didn't you tell me??" And we will rightfully and defensibly say, "I wasn't allowed to."

**The player who should have been up gets credit for the action of the actual batter. This means it's theoretically possible for a batter to get credit for a home run despite the fact that he was dropping a deuce in the clubhouse bathroom when the ball left the yard.

Overall, I've seen some weird-ass stuff go down on a baseball or softball diamond under the "what happened, happened" philosophy of the rules.
King's Casino FT WSOP Circuit Main Events (Ring #11) fail Quote
01-30-2023 , 10:39 PM
You can see in the video that they start to change the graphic to a KKK flop, so they get a corrected result, and about 30 seconds later the next hand is being dealt
King's Casino FT WSOP Circuit Main Events (Ring #11) fail Quote
01-30-2023 , 11:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fore
The "obvious" is not the key. It is TDA rule 22.

"22: Disputed Hands and Pots

The reading of a tabled hand may be disputed until the next hand begins (see Rule 23). Accounting errors in calculating and awarding the pot may be disputed until substantial action occurs on the next hand. If a hand finishes during a break, the right to any dispute ends 1 minute after the pot is awarded."
This is a confusing rule. Was this a mistake in reading a tabled hand or a mistake in awarding the pot? It seems like situations like this would usually involve both.
King's Casino FT WSOP Circuit Main Events (Ring #11) fail Quote

      
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