It depends what language the game is being run in. I think games at Kings are in English

Unless they changed the rules recently, Czech, German and English are allowed at the table.

If I am talking to a dealer or floor the main objective is to make sure they get my point. In casinos in Germany, Austria and at Rozvadov that would usually be in German.

Not advocating for the way they do it in France where all of a sudden nobody (including the floor) understands English anymore when there’s a dispute between a French player and a foreigner. But I am also not putting myself at a disadvantage by speaking in a dealer’s third language to accommodate somebody who doesn’t speak any of the local languages.

If that specific game has an English-only language things are obviously different and I agree that everyone should follow that rule even if speaking German would be easier for them.

Just FWIW after rewatching the video and absent any other information, I think the spot was handled poorly by dealer/ floor and OP got the short end of the stick.

Absolutely

This seems like an obvious case for Joey Ingram to break down especially since it was the great game.

The final P/L on the screen shows Op winning the pot which is incredible to me. Also villain appears to be the biggest punter in the game.

My only guess is villain is one of the reasons the game is even being played so he got some preferential treatment here or something.

There’s something extremely bothersome about the dealer counting down your time bank and that not being the “official” time bank. The idea you can move the goal posts seems quite frankly unbelievable.

The people doing the steam would surely give the pot to OP as they knew he had the winning hand and called the bet on the river. They probably couldn't anticipate what would happen after. As you say there was a countdown and OP was well within that. Whole situation is an outrage and 'mob rule' prevailed as a previous poster said.

This does put me off playing in more obscure places. About 5 years ago I played in Tbilisi in Georgia in a USD 1/2 game and was pretty much bullied or angled out my money. I was terrible at poker at that time so fair play I would have probably lost anyway but they ganged up on me as an outsider as seems to have happened here but for a heck of a lot more money

To be somewhat fair to the Casino I guess they are actually all voluntarily playing super deep PLO for hs with 20 second time bank LOL. Knowingly sitting down under those circumstances is... Well, enjoy

Time bank chip worth 20 sec extra? Ridiculous game to sit in, but soft

Nobody wants to watch a live stream where players tank for minutes.

Fun players don't want to play in a game where their opponents constantly work through the game tree.

Pros who have the opportunity to get into that game can decide if they want to sit in a juicy time bank game or play in a different game.

I'm with you - play stupid games win stupid prizes.

To improve that game I say make the timebank chips worh a minute each not 20 ****ing seconds lol. Just get rid of the timebank chips all together otherwise.

The game and the time banks look to be a cluster flack... I would advise you to stay out of this game...

Update: after messages one of the higher ups from Kings Casino he told me he will personally look at the situation after his vacation (till Tuesday). He is willing to meet me in person and make a final decision.
Hopefully we will be able to work something out.

That is good to hear they are looking at it. If they were to rule in your favour would be interesting to know how they would make it right as the other guy obviously got the chips

Half-grunch

8.5/10 on the outrageous scale

Things like this happening are one of the many reason Kings room and owner have a bad reputation

Dealers never have the discretion to kill hands on a technicality

For it to happen in a big plo cash game where player intent is clear and time-bank/clock management is slopppy is unheard of


Add: a 20-second time clock also makes no sense at all as a concept and is guaranteed to have implementation/enforcement problems

I messaged a friend who occasionally plays/played in a time bank game (20 sec preflop, 25 sec flop, 30 sec turn/river) who told me the second the clock beeps the hand is dead and the dealer mucks it. Dealer has the authority to do that without having to call for the floor.

That said he also thought the dealer messed up in the hand in question here.

Killing a hand when the rules are clear-cut is fine but this was...

Also most live streamed games time chips are used automatically when a player is indecisive. This is practical for a lot of reasons, including not interrupting the players decision / wasting a portion of the time with dealer procedural communications.

So here when a player tries to use them, has them thrown back and then told his hand is dead because he didn't use it/enough of them is nonsensical.

Always better to err on the side of game integrity/not killing a hand hastily.

Kind of stinks that the stream cuts out before the Floor made the ruling. I'm not so sure that we can have an opinion on the Floor as presented. We don't know how the spot was explained by the Dealer and how much the Players got to influence the story since it's a 'private' game.

I don't see a clock on the table .. how was it being tracked?

I think the Dealer should've done more to define the clock .. I'm not so sure that it was even the Dealer doing the countdown. I've seen many a stream where European Dealers will sit very silent and let things play out much longer than in US .. it may be part of their training?

Even if the 'higher ups' find the situation was handled incorrectly how do they plan on getting the chips from that Player?

If OP had to pay off the bet, then we have a whole new set of WTFs to discuss for sure.

Obv playing in a time bank game/on stream would be a challenge for anyone. Even with all the confusion over stack size and time banks being pushed back and forth I thought the call was made in a timely manner for the 'legit' time banks without watching the clock.

I believe the V is indicating that the OP made use of expired time banks from the Flop, but the Dealer should've known how many times he hit the reset button and whether the countdown was accurate .. especially if the Dealer actually was verbalizing the count down. (Which I don't think he was)

What a mess, keep us informed as to the resolution .. if any. GL

Yeah I asked this earlier but never got answered. It would be good to find out from OP if his hand was considered a fold and he kept the chips he had going into the river. If it was treated as a call but then hand is declared dead after and villain took all the chips that would be another level of scamming

Ow sorry for the non response. I did not have to pay out the final bet (7900 euro).

That's 'good' as it would be insane if you somehow had to pay that. However you should have been awarded the whole pot!

The real question is if he had the hand he was repping aka the nuts/the flush does he still call your hand dead?

We will never know that with 100% certainty so I will estimate around 99.9998% in that case they treat it as a call and have no issues with the way the timebanks were handled

Ok now let’s assume op completely violated time bank…

Is it in the spirit of the game for the villain to concede the pot to Op based on the fact he knows in his heart and soul he got caught bluffing and lost?

I think this is pretty irrelevant as time should be accurately tracked by the dealer and the player on the clock should know when his time expires. It shouldn't be down to villain to decide / heavily influence how the use of timebank chips is enforced

Sounds like this game needs to implement a shot clock. Can still use the shot punishment at certain times.

Update time:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1149609761
Hand starting at 05:56:02 in the stream.

So... I watched the stream back numerous time and have been in talks with the casino management.
[Game rules] each hand starts with 5x20sec time bank

The story is the following:
I was in a hand with an opponent "Hama Montana" in a 25/25/50 game at Kings Casino.
In the hand I 4-bet pre and he calls.
We reach a flop on which he leads for pot. I trow in 2 time bank chips and make a decision after some time.
After I decided to call the shot clock states 20.7 seconds and the dealer returns me one of the two time bank chip. After this I take back both time bank chips from the pot, I should only have taken back one given I was 0.7 seconds over the 20 sec time limit.
We move over to the turn on which he bets 3500 and I call within 20 seconds.
On the river he moves all in for an unknown and the dealer starts the shot clock immediately. I trow in all my time bank chips and take 1:32 to make the call.
After I make the call my opponent complains and after a long discusion (10 min) my hand is declared dead.
The floor states this is because I took 1:46 seconds and my 5th time bank time was used illegally because I took it out of the pot myself (which is correct).
I take a look at the stream the day after and find out I took 1:32 and my hand should not have been declared dead. I try complaining but the upper boss is not available and i decide to go home after hours of waiting.
The night I reached home I got a message from a manager stating that I did indeed take 1:32 but the 4 time banks only granted me 1:20. This however is the extra time and I should have 1:40 and my hand should not be dead.

I reach out to the highest poker level manager in kings and he explains to me that I took 1:32 on the river and needed 4 time banks.
At this point he states to my surprise that I took 51 seconds on the flop and used two time banks. I say I would like to see the security top view of the table on which the shot clock is visible. He says the shot clock was started late and only stated 20.7 seconds when I called. But he timed the timing with a stop watch which made it 51 seconds. After looking back the stream this is indeed true.

My point is that I could not have known this during the hand given the fact that the shot clock stated 20.7 seconds and the dealer returned one of my time banks.

In addiction, after 22 seconds on the river he announced the bet is 7900 (I am pretty sure this is when the shot clock should start). And I only take 65 seconds from this point so even with 3 time banks I should be within the time aloud.

The highest level manager stated that he is no longer willing to discuss the issue and his decision is final.
I honestly feel that kings casino made the wrong decision in declaring my hand dead and I would like to take future action. Any suggestions?
I have thought of:
1. Complaining to the governing body of kings casino (the one who hands out the license). I am unable to find who this is though. Any advise on if this is smart and if so how to proceed with this please send me a private message.)
2. trying to get my story out their by reaching out to so known people in the community.
3. Suing kings casino (I do live in the Netherlands and kings casino is located in the Czech republic) (Any advise on if this is smart and if so how to proceed with this please send me a private message.)

I do have proof that the clock read 20.7 seconds when I called on the flop and 1:32min when I called river and I have the hand saved of the stream as well as saved all the whats app and recorded most of the in person conversations I had with the casino staff.

For what its worth the amount I believe I should still receive is around 23.5k euro

TLDR: My hand got declared dead in a 30k pot based on that the dealer started the shot clock late and returned a time bank chip based on the timing of the shot clock, which I used on the river. After I called on the river and villain complains my hand is declared dead after a long discussion.