I am going to have to agree with swd here this is kind of sad. Katie is a stars pro who is liked and even has her own blog. Life is good and yet she is complaining about this petty nonsense. Katie is lucky to even get to play on Stars. As an American player I have to play on lesser sites to be able to play online. Katie gets negative points from me for this letter she posted.

She's a Stars pro already? I thought 70% of her motivation for making this pitch was to become a Stars pro.

Yea you are right she isn't a Stars pro but she is a poker pro I believe. I could be wrong I thought she received her pro status already.

Naw that's not how it works. First you have to create the problem, and then be able to convince the brass that you can solve it.

IF women want equal rights/pay etc in every aspect of life why do they think its right that they have something like poker tourneys where only women can enter. Why are they any different when it comes to player acquisition to stars or any other site. If you want equal rights dont ask for preferential treatment to get there. IMO there shouldnt be any womens tourneys just tourneys. Women and men alike play at your own cost. You cross the line of equal when women start complaining about not having enough womens tourneys etc.

And both are Richard Pryor fans, evidently. (Only his joke were two guys peeing off a bridge.)

I am gonna cut you off there.
Wrong thread. Obv Katie is not asking for equality.

This is really so ridiculous, as are all posts of this ilk. People are segregated in all sorts of ways, in poker and across many other sports/games/activities. For example, there are live Seniors events (never seen any online, probably should exist - with extended timebanks(!)). To my mind that does not in some way negate or undermine the plight of older people to, say, get equal pay in the workplace (yes income inequality is an issue for seniors) or whatever other unfair inequalities older people may face. Because that would make me insane. In fact, such events do not inform my view of the rights and roles of older people in wider society. I see the event as a novelty, one that excludes me by something as arbitrary as age, and I give zero ****s.

So long as the intention is not to cause alienation, people will continue to earmark groups of people along the familiar lines of gender/age/ability and so on. And less so along the lines of race/sexuality/political views etc. (to those posting staw man arguments) because such segregation is seen as more divisive - and, unlike the former three, those traits have next to no bearing on how one engages with the game of poker/integrates into the community.

It's as if some people haven't noticed the very arbitrary, yet ingrained habit people have of dividing people up by their gender. What happens in wider society will be mirrored in the poker world. I recently attended a 'battle of the sexes' pub quiz night. In politics, campaigning politicians often appeal to men and women differently to gain their votes. Where I live, there is a place that offers men's only bingo nights. To me what PS and other sites do is actually quite lazy, and is in the same vein as examples cited above. If it wouldn't be an utterly futile exercise, but to please a few trolls on here, there would be online tournaments exclusive to men. There are none because they are of no value whatsoever. They practically exist de facto.

There are marked gender differences in how people gamble, female poker players are in a vast minority online, and, I suppose, the existence of women's only events online is to acknowledge our presence. When I first logged into PS and had a look around, I didn't stumble upon the tourney lobby, see pink and say to myself: "Ah, I'm home". In fact, it was several months until I discovered women's only tourneys. I watched a few minutes of one, there was no chat apart from one person saying "fish", they didn't even use the word, they used an emoticon. The play was horrendous and again, I gave zero ****s. It's not for me but good luck to those who enjoy it.

Either way, the effects are minuscule. No one is at a disadvantage as a result of these events. I am sure much of the money won in these tournaments will find its way back into the wider pool. Conversely to a fair few posters, I doubt there is much benefit to them, I refuse to believe that they are used as sanctuary from men - that would be absurd. So I understand some of the objections to that notion. But can we please stop treating these events as if they are intended to be some kind of symbol of reparation? It's simply marketing - which I doubt is very effective, but it's nothing more.

So many posts itt....

Stars thought they could make more money with these promotions/events

Stars realised they werent making any more money and could make more money by putting their efforts in to other ventures

Life goes on. Blame the people that didn't make these events a success, its not up to stars to waste their time and money pushing out these sexist events because a tiny few (who are likely just predators) want them.

Not to sidetrack this conversation, but I think that more voluntary segregation, either via randomly generated groups (for all different stakes and formats) or groups based on region and/or membership to a real life group (i.e. "Mormon" or "plumber"), would potentially be really good for any site that has a lot of traffic, especially one with no "matchmaking" option to put you with the appropriate level of competition.

It would create a bunch of small ponds for the more frustrated of the competitive people to feel like big fish in, so to speak, many of whom would otherwise not win enough to want to keep playing and paying rake.

Having a bunch of smaller groups you can join and try to beat would also create more attainable goals for fun players and hobbyist who are getting nowhere in the open field games at the stakes/formats they want to play in.

Small, personal groups discourage the type of chat box abuse that anonymity seems to encourage.

It gives the site the opportunity to market to these customers more effectively, also, if the groups we join are based on real life associations and personal values.

^ Number one would be foreign language tables. People who are seated using quickseat should be placed where possible with people they are actually going to be able and allowed to talk to in their own language.

http://www.pocketfives.com/profiles/luckierno7/

I don't think she cares about women's tournaments.

If she can do it, any women who puts the work in can.

i always go thru the women's tourney lobbies and mark them all light blue bc i want to be reminded that they're crying light blue tears after they lose a hand.

You have different motivations than some players. Some players just play for fun. FUN. It's a thing. They aren't motivated by improving their game and becoming the best player they can be. They just want to do something they think is fun. There are people of this type in both genders. There are also many people who get their kicks by being rude and crass and belittling others--those scumbags and bottom feeders you mentioned. I'm sure there are some in both genders.

I know it's a little hurtful that people are suggesting that the poker environment can be made more fun and enjoyable--perhaps even inviting--for a potential segment of new players by excluding men (lots of men are plenty fun and enjoyable, and many women are the opposite). But the fact remains that there are female players who might be more comfortable getting their start in a women's only event. Maybe from there, they will branch out and join open events. Or maybe it's a way to draw them into the Casino where they hear the siren song of the slots.

Casinos are businesses. If there is a market for ladies only events, having one among their many open offerings seems like a reasonable thing to do. I wouldn't begrudge men having one either if they find women too disagreeable to play with. Whatever. Have at it.

Anyway, back to my original point. I'm a female who is motivated by trying to be good at this game. I enjoy playing against men--I want to best them. My mother just wants to have fun. Call her weak, soft, whatever, but she wants to have fun. Women's events are a way to get her at the table occasionally, but she still doesn't want to sit down in the cash games with the cut throats. Probably there are women somewhere who's temperaments are in between mine and my mother's. Those are the women who ladies only events are targeting (or at least who poker players hope to be targeting). ...Or draw my mom in with the ladies tournament, and she'll wander over to the slots after she busts. Win win for the casino.

A good idea, but if a moderator had to get involved or the site had to facilitate a chop, you would need to have a multi-linguistic support team. That cost would have to be considered. On PokerStars I played with players from Brazil, China, Russia, Uzbekistan and many other countries. I guess it would be like poker variants, you would have to see what the demand was and add languages a few at a time before you started scooping up a bunch of college language students for your support team.

You could probably create a standard message or form regarding chops and then translate it to the appropriate language. You could also have pre-written common questions, complaints or sentences, f.a.q style.

There are ways that women in poker are treated better than men. We've already talked about one, sex-based softer tournaments.

Let's be real. Even more important than the type or softness of a tournament, an attractive 21-year-old woman is much more marketable than an attractive 21-year-old man, and unless she doesn't like money, she'll work it to some extent. Vanessa Rousso was in the Sports Illistrated swimsuit issue.

When the WPT features their "ones to watch", they are always about half men and half women--and we all know that those numbers have nothing to do with what the poker world really looks like, at the highest levels or at all levels. Simply put, most of the female "ones to watch" were chosen because the WPT indeed wants the audience to watch them.

What is the one topic sure to be discussed during every WSOPME? We need a woman to make the final table. Not exactly an oppresive environment.

Yeah ladies, let's get real here for a second. We all think we experience "sexism" in poker, but the vast majority of men on 2p2 don't think it exists. I think we need to stop letting our own experiences cloud our judgment and start realizing that their opinions about what they think we experience might be more valid.

For instance, I had a creepy old man grabbing on me at the poker table last night, and that might have made me uncomfortable. However, there are dozens of guys on this very forum who have NEVER noticed any behavior at a poker table that they would consider inappropriate or sexist. Sure, maybe a little harmless flirting, but we women should be flattered by that. Just because I frequently experience inappropriate behavior and comments from men, I'm starting to realize that men who never notice that this happens might have a much more relevant perspective about how women are treated in the poker world.

And it's true, maybe I just need to look at the bigger picture. For instance, maybe I shouldn't have been creeped out by a stranger touching me in the first place, because I am female, and there are women out there who get poker deals simply for being female! I just need to recognize that sometimes attractive women are chosen by poker brands as marketing tools, and that's an unfair benefit that those women get. Logic would dictate that my potential future marketability as a female completely negates my right to complain about sexism and harassment in poker.

I feel better now that I understand that the amount of general attention I get as a woman (whether positive or negative; attention is attention right?), AND the amount of attention that other women get, really outweighs any possible complaints I might have about how some men behave toward me in person, or about how that behavior is condoned by the general poker community.

Guys making sexual remarks about you at the table? Creepy dudes touching you? Rape threats (LOL)? Who cares, deal with it ladies, because according to a lot of guys we get a ton of benefits for being female (hellooo, like our super special ladies events), and that more than makes up for it.

Just because people manage to stand up, doesn't mean I don't believe in gravity.

You are the first person in hundreds of posts to make an argument for your side that is substantially different to the argument in favour of all-white golf clubs with "white" replaced by "women" and "golf clubs" replaced by "poker tournaments".

So probably like a lot of men, I have been reading these arguments and thinking "What's being said here is outrageous, but for some reason I don't actually care even though I should." Your post finally explains to me why I don't care and probably shouldn't. Given your the first person to actually make the point it's unfair to characterise the other side as making straw man arguments though. Anyway, it was interesting and I will incorporate it into my thinking.

I think it should be pointed out that a lot, if not the majority, of the offending behaviour (by men towards the female players) is probably not consciously intended as such. Nobody wants to be a person who is not allowed to flirt when it seems like its ok for others to do so, or who is not getting flirted with, unless, of course, they consider the others unappealing as potential mates.

Men for some reason don't seem to understand that women feel differently about behaviour depending on the circumstances and how they feel about the person who it comes from. Men will continue making unwanted advances if only to protect their ego but women do this far less often.

Thegroupie you make fair points but that doesnt negate pokerclifs argument that sexism can go both ways. Of course noone deserves to be treated that way and im sorry you had to experience that, but his point is despite all the negative attention you get as a woman at the table, you also have the potential to gain equity at the table that a man cant. Of course those potential advantages dont make sexist behaviors acceptable, thats absurd. Im no lawyer or TD but is there really no penalty, legal or otherwise, for a man physically touching you or making rape threats?

Just what us men want, a bunch of women at the tables complaining about every single thing a man does until they finally shape and pidgeon hole the rest of the table into something they think they have a shot at beating.

I think you're extrapolating beyond what I was talking about. I will always maintain that women have some advantages at the table that men don't. In one recent tournament the only time I showed my hand was when an attractive woman with a nice smile asked me to. I felt stupid afterward. I don't think that it works the other way nearly as often.

That said, that doesn't mean that I want anyone groping me in a poker room, or that I have the right to grope anyone. Whether we're talking about gay or straight, men or women, it's just as wrong in a poker room as it is in any other workplace. If a guy was grabbling at you he's probably done it to others as well, so the dealer and floor should certainly be told to watch that guy. If the dealer or the floor saw it, it should have dealt with immediately.

Guys making remarks about women? That's a tough one. As I said in an earlier post, guys verbally go after other guys all the time, including on looks. And I've never heard any man tell a women, "Your mother was good last night."

lf you're at the poker table and Tony G looks at you and says "nice boobs," is that worse than when he screamed at a amateur male (on national TV) with pictures of his family at the table, "I'll take all your money and your children will starve"? Should he be sanctioned for one but not the other? They are certainly both inappropriate, but I honestly don't know where that line is.

I will admit that I haven't seen a lot of things that you have, possibly because of the places that I play. I don't live near a casino so almost all of my live play happens in local charity rooms. The percentage of women is low, but not as much as in some other places. It's not unusual for me to be at a table with two or three women. It's also not unusual for several older (50+) married couples to play in a tournament. The players are mostly male and young, but it's not the kind of room where the things you described would ever be tolerated.

I've chased a purse snatcher (he got away but he dropped the purse) and I broke up an attempted kidnapping while about 30 other people were standing around watching while a man was dragging the woman away. I assure you that I would speak up if a man was acting in the ways that you described.