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Old 01-08-2018, 09:59 PM   #101
the_glaive
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofcool View Post
I don't think you can call such a key (and mostly, standard) stipulation a loophole. It could also have been used the other way if Fernando wasnt worth it. If anything, Upswing should carefully read the contracts they draft in order to protect their customers.
Perhaps your right, but I don't think it matters much.

The point remains, okay, you find out your contract wasn't written the way it was supposed to have been and you can exploit this, but do you do that if you know it will negatively affect people who call you a friend and who have only ever tried to support you on your various platforms?
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Old 01-08-2018, 10:54 PM   #102
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

The platforms didn’t give Fernando a forum to be nice or because they were all pals. In the case of the contracted agreement, they were two parties in a business arrangement, with a standard clause (again, in a contract written by the company’s lawyer) that could have benefited one side as much as the other.

If a contract specifically allowed me to do something, but the other party suggested I shouldn’t because they didn’t even know that was in the contract they wrote...well, that wouldn’t really be very persuasive.

And what is your basis for declaring them all such good friends anyway?
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Old 01-08-2018, 11:25 PM   #103
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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The point remains, okay, you find out your contract wasn't written the way it was supposed to have been and you can exploit this
I kind of doubt you can even have a legal employment contract where an entity has the right to fire a person, but the person has no right to quit.
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Old 01-09-2018, 01:40 AM   #104
Michael Buble
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread


Jnandez with some new insights. He claims that Doug blatantly lying. It's just a disagreement where they couldn't progress any further and he had to make a tough decision.
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Old 01-09-2018, 01:58 AM   #105
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

People have a really hard time understanding that just because you *can* do something does not mean you *should* do something.
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Old 01-09-2018, 01:59 AM   #106
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Not sure of the exact details as discussed in the older thread before it was deleted, but it seems like the point of contention is the conversations that took place before they launched the long term membership - where nando allegedly gave some kind of assurance in conversation with doug (possibly) in exchange for an increased stake in operations.

Hard to evaluate without knowing the details of the conversation and what consideration was given or not given. Should be easy to solve though since im guessing most of their correspondence was done online.
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Old 01-09-2018, 02:57 AM   #107
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by Outoftime44444 View Post

JNandez- says he needed more money for his team to take the Lab to the next level, because poker develops, and Doug refused to offer it. Solvers needs help. Loves his team so much he had to leave. Felt like making videos is going backwards, and even though it is what agreed on, wants his own site. Coaching and feedback from people is meaningful to him. Woe is JNandez because he was kicked out of the FB group after quitting. Admits that he originally got into videos, twitch, etc to create his own brand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4d66I2JjY&t=504s

v.

Doug- says JNandez had no intentions to stay, did not negotiate staying in good faith and wanted too much money, rode Doug's publicity to gain fame and a following before breaking off before the contract expired, and tried to take the followers with him. JNandez only has to split pay back the refunds, but gets to keep the money for anyone that stays.
This should make it obvious that this is the wrong model for a coaching business.

Upswing/Nandez:
1a) educates a mass audience for relatively low price, making games much tougher
2b) doesn't share in upside at all for students who become good mid/high stakes regs

Nandez specifically:
1b) has a massive incentive to get out from under Upswing, so he can get ~100% of the revenue he generates working on his own, but model allows coach to coast off of Doug's/Upswing's brand to get his first N subscribers (these are the most important ones)
2b) needs to be handsomely compensated because he makes his own games harder, which is hard when Upswing has to make money/take a cut
3b) generally sub-coach is getting an unfair deal since brand owners get some of the revenue generated by him for doing nothing -- eventually gets sour, realizes he is better off on his own, leaves. Cycle repeats.

As for Upswing:
1c) incredibly hard to retain contracted talent because of point 1b above which leads to high turnover for coaches
2c) can't pay someone who is actually really good unless that person is just a massive idiot who accepts way less than he/she is worth


Better model -- coaching small number of people for profit share.


Cliffs: This is/was inevitable.

Last edited by Two SHAE; 01-09-2018 at 03:07 AM.
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Old 01-09-2018, 04:00 AM   #108
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by Michael Buble View Post


Jnandez with some new insights. He claims that Doug blatantly lying. It's just a disagreement where they couldn't progress any further and he had to make a tough decision.


Doug lying for his own benefit and / or to save face? I will not believe that.
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Old 01-09-2018, 04:24 AM   #109
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

idiotic modding and really diff to discuss when the original thread was deleted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Two SHAE View Post
This should make it obvious that this is the wrong model for a coaching business.

Upswing/Nandez:
1a) educates a mass audience for relatively low price, making games much tougher
2b) doesn't share in upside at all for students who become good mid/high stakes regs

Nandez specifically:
1b) has a massive incentive to get out from under Upswing, so he can get ~100% of the revenue he generates working on his own, but model allows coach to coast off of Doug's/Upswing's brand to get his first N subscribers (these are the most important ones)
2b) needs to be handsomely compensated because he makes his own games harder, which is hard when Upswing has to make money/take a cut
3b) generally sub-coach is getting an unfair deal since brand owners get some of the revenue generated by him for doing nothing -- eventually gets sour, realizes he is better off on his own, leaves. Cycle repeats.

As for Upswing:
1c) incredibly hard to retain contracted talent because of point 1b above which leads to high turnover for coaches
2c) can't pay someone who is actually really good unless that person is just a massive idiot who accepts way less than he/she is worth


Better model -- coaching small number of people for profit share.


Cliffs: This is/was inevitable.

agree 100%, there are a lot of misaligned incentives here that make the long term arrangement dubious.

however, Jnandez was already very well known in his own right before he joined Upswing, so while your point about gaining the first N subscribers is true in general/in theory, I'm inclined to think it's not a huge factor here. Tacking himself on to Upswing to get his name out there would make a lot more sense for a wanna be coach that wasn't too well known. Then again, Upswing prob doesn't wanna hire someone who doesn't already have some built up following.
Both parties benefit from diff things and when **** goes south, everybody loses, tho Upswing a lot more so.
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:01 AM   #110
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Quote:
Better model -- coaching small number of people for profit share.
Cliffs: This is/was inevitable.
Isn't that even worse incentive wise?
For the student:
-once they are good enough to beat the game comfortably there is huge incentive to go alone
For the coach:
-there is incentive to hold back so the student keeps coming back and the coach still have more to offer; preferably the student should just beat a game but shouldn't become too good

There is also the elephant in the room: a lot of coaches are just not good at poker and definitely not good at improving others. It's easy to sound smart though but that only fit training site model, not individual coaching done for profit share.
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:04 AM   #111
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

i generally like Doug but this is absurd. Nandez added a clause to the contract that allowed him to opt out. Doug agreed to said contract. Nandez opted out, then Doug claimed he didn't read the contract carefully enough?

zzz
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:49 AM   #112
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by apricotjello View Post
i generally like Doug but this is absurd. Nandez added a clause to the contract that allowed him to opt out. Doug agreed to said contract. Nandez opted out, then Doug claimed he didn't read the contract carefully enough?

zzz
If I understand it correctly Upswing claims their own lawyer put in the clause without them knowing.

Honestly I believe they put it in, if nobody buys the course they could get rid easy of the best paid coach in 2017(according to Doug).
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:13 AM   #113
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

for 250k / year they might be able to secure Joey Ingram, poker author.
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:27 AM   #114
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by kingofcool View Post
for 250k / year they might be able to secure Joey Ingram, poker author.
Do you think Hastings will also be part of the deal?
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:27 AM   #115
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Both sides felt that each had to live up to a certain level of obligations. If either side did not, within the terms of the specified written contract, they then can opt opt. Not sure why that's hard to see.

Looking at the perspective of treating Fernando as "just an employee" is not the answer. This seems to be the case with people arguing he shouldn't have opted out. Better to look at it from the view of sports athletes. They have the option to take that extra year or opt out. Is it their ethical duty to opt in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllJackedUp View Post
People have a really hard time understanding that just because you *can* do something does not mean you *should* do something.
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:05 AM   #116
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Jnandez is an excellent teacher. I like his content a lot.
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:36 AM   #117
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by kingofcool View Post
for 250k / year they might be able to secure Joey Ingram, poker author.
Maybe

You've added wonderful insight to this thread per usual, nice work
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:39 AM   #118
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by ChicagoJoey View Post
Maybe

You've added wonderful insight to this thread per usual, nice work
PAPI

SHOW US THE WAY!
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Old 01-09-2018, 12:08 PM   #119
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by illdonk View Post
The forum literally has "Gossip" in its name.
LOL!!!! Don't get all technical on us!!
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Old 01-09-2018, 12:15 PM   #120
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
Isn't that even worse incentive wise?
For the student:
-once they are good enough to beat the game comfortably there is huge incentive to go alone
For the coach:
-there is incentive to hold back so the student keeps coming back and the coach still have more to offer; preferably the student should just beat a game but shouldn't become too good

There is also the elephant in the room: a lot of coaches are just not good at poker and definitely not good at improving others. It's easy to sound smart though but that only fit training site model, not individual coaching done for profit share.
Long-term contract (~2+ years). Coach earns amount directly related to the value he gives/creates.
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Old 01-09-2018, 12:34 PM   #121
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Not sure if this adds much, but for those of you who don't know, Jnandez was streaming on twitch and making great content well before Upswing.

Fwiw I don't have a dog in this fight. I love both of their content.
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Old 01-09-2018, 12:48 PM   #122
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

As for Nandez already having audience/subs, I get that of course and what I said in my first post sold that short. What I meant is that he was able to capitalize on Upswing exposure to get to a critical mass where he could really start up his own thing. He has the first N subs, but he multiplied that by a huge number because of Upswing and then wanted to leave. Which was inevitable. Because business model.
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Old 01-09-2018, 02:14 PM   #123
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by kingofcool View Post
Distribution is worth a tonne. It is definitely not as easy as "well x made the product and deserves all the money.

With this said, i still don't see what Fernando has done that is unethical. Especially given he 1) made them lots of money and 2) followed their stipulations.
You think its ethical to join a business in order to gather a client list and then leave to start your own business with the exact same clients? Cause that's pretty much what he's doing.

Big difference between legal and ethical.
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Old 01-09-2018, 03:13 PM   #124
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

So you think it would still be unethical if he had stayed for the full 12-18 months and then started his own business?
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Old 01-09-2018, 03:25 PM   #125
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by WCGRider View Post
Fernando Habegger (Jnandez) has exercised his option to leave Upswing Poker by written notice after a 90 day period. It is unfortunate to see him go, but he will be leaving the Upswing Team beginning at the start of April. He created excellent work at Upswing, and he is both a good PLO player as well as an outstanding coach. His work with the company will be missed.

Most importantly, we will be taking care of our customers. Many people signed up for 6 or 12 month courses to be taught by Jnandez, and due to these circumstances that will not be possible. Because of this, we will be offering Pro-Rata refunds for anyone who has purchased 6 or 12 month packages, as well as refunds for anyone who recently elected to sign up for monthly subscriptions. If you are an unhappy PLO Lab customer, contact our support team and we will remedy the situation.

We are not planning on closing the PLO lab however, and moving forward we will be doing our best to bring on an excellent team of coaches. We already have several applicants, and I am hoping to create a team of coaches that will further improve the quality of this comprehensive PLO coaching course.

We want to take responsibility for the mistakes made here, and in the future we will not be relying on a single coach to bring content on a subscription course. We will continue to offer high quality courses despite the issues that have arisen here, and I want to thank everyone who has chosen Upswing Poker as their poker training destination.
Just like banks and anywhere else that is worried about customer retention... You need to release Jnandez right away. You're allowed to if they've given notice. You're just required to pay him throughout his notice. You're very likely to save a substantial amount by doing this since you won't need to worry about the "in-between" period of him marketing his website on your platform.

That's California law any way for Employee/Employer W2 earner. If you made Jnandez a 1099 employee than it's likely different.
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