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Old 01-07-2018, 07:53 PM   #1
Mason Malmuth
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JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Hi Everyone:

Some of you may have noticed that I deleted a thread yesterday on this very topic. I made the deletion because it was my opinion, and only my opinion, that some internal Upswing Poker information had got out which presented both parties in a negative light and could lead to misconceptions about both Upswing and JNandez.

Anyway, we should soon have a statement posted in this thread by Doug Polk which should provide answers to this situation. Doug has also promised to participate in this thread to the best of his ability.

And just to set the record straight, while Iím good friends with all the Upswing people, I donít know JNandez at all even though we had a brief introduction last summer. In addition, since this question came up in the Doug Polk video thread, neither I or anyone else in 2+2 management has any ownership in Upswing Poker.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 01-07-2018, 07:56 PM   #2
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Fernando Habegger (Jnandez) has exercised his option to leave Upswing Poker by written notice after a 90 day period. It is unfortunate to see him go, but he will be leaving the Upswing Team beginning at the start of April. He created excellent work at Upswing, and he is both a good PLO player as well as an outstanding coach. His work with the company will be missed.

Most importantly, we will be taking care of our customers. Many people signed up for 6 or 12 month courses to be taught by Jnandez, and due to these circumstances that will not be possible. Because of this, we will be offering Pro-Rata refunds for anyone who has purchased 6 or 12 month packages, as well as refunds for anyone who recently elected to sign up for monthly subscriptions. If you are an unhappy PLO Lab customer, contact our support team and we will remedy the situation.

We are not planning on closing the PLO lab however, and moving forward we will be doing our best to bring on an excellent team of coaches. We already have several applicants, and I am hoping to create a team of coaches that will further improve the quality of this comprehensive PLO coaching course.

We want to take responsibility for the mistakes made here, and in the future we will not be relying on a single coach to bring content on a subscription course. We will continue to offer high quality courses despite the issues that have arisen here, and I want to thank everyone who has chosen Upswing Poker as their poker training destination.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:01 PM   #3
golfbum983
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Sounds reasonable but come on Doug tells us how you really feel...
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:07 PM   #4
Outoftime44444
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Doug told us how he really felt yesterday, but that was since deleted.

Now stuck with boring PR statement.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:08 PM   #5
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi Everyone:

Some of you may have noticed that I deleted a thread yesterday on this very topic. I made the deletion because it was my opinion, and only my opinion, that some internal Upswing Poker information had got out which presented both parties in a negative light and could lead to misconceptions about both Upswing and JNandez.

Anyway, we should soon have a statement posted in this thread by Doug Polk which should provide answers to this situation. Doug has also promised to participate in this thread to the best of his ability.

And just to set the record straight, while Iím good friends with all the Upswing people, I donít know JNandez at all even though we had a brief introduction last summer. In addition, since this question came up in the Doug Polk video thread, neither I or anyone else in 2+2 management has any ownership in Upswing Poker.

Best wishes,
Mason
The 'internal information' got out because Doug Polk and JNandez posted the information themselves - and if what they said reflected badly on either one of them, that's their choice - so why would you suddenly decide to police that off your own bat?
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:12 PM   #6
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
The 'internal information' got out because Doug Polk and JNandez posted the information themselves - and if what they said reflected badly on either one of them, that's their choice - so why would you suddenly decide to police that off your own bat?
One is a current paid advertiser and one will be in the future.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:16 PM   #7
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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One is a current paid advertiser and one will be in the future.
In which case Mason should say that, of course

The fact is that they both went public, some of us have written the story up, warts and all - in the poker media (boo hiss, yeah I know) and now the thread has been deleted because Mason has a personal opinion :/ Revisionist or what?
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:16 PM   #8
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by Outoftime44444 View Post
Doug told us how he really felt yesterday, but that was since deleted.

Now stuck with boring PR statement.
My prior statement, while factually accurate, but did not speak to the high quality of work Fernando provided.

Additionally, it was not focused enough on the most important people, the paying members of Upswing Poker.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:21 PM   #9
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by WCGRider View Post
My prior statement, while factually accurate, but did not speak to the high quality of work Fernando provided.

Additionally, it was not focused enough on the most important people, the paying members of Upswing Poker.
So, did you ask for the thread or exchanges to be deleted Doug? I mean, you could have added a post explaining what you've just explained to the original thread. Those words were said, but now they've been 'unsaid' - that's not really how things should work unless things are libelous or downright out of order.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:25 PM   #10
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
I made the deletion because it was my opinion, and only my opinion, that some internal Upswing Poker information had got out which presented both parties in a negative light and could lead to misconceptions about both Upswing and JNandez.
This is hilarious. The only information coming out of that thread was from both parties, who discussed their frustrations and disappointment with one another. I agree that it didn't paint either party in the best light (I think JNandez came off worse, personally), but there are so many topics in this forum that where people come off in a negative light. Are you really going to police everything like that? Why didn't you delete the Alec Torelli thread for example, which includes all sorts of allegations about him and presents him in a negative light and could lead to misconceptions?

Now we have a deleted thread which we're not allowed to post details of (obviously the most interesting), another thread about the same topic which carries on where it left off, and this one, which is a separate space for Doug to repost his statement. Plus we have a bunch of discussion about the deleting the first thread in the moderation thread.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:26 PM   #11
Mason Malmuth
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
The 'internal information' got out because Doug Polk and JNandez posted the information themselves - and if what they said reflected badly on either one of them, that's their choice - so why would you suddenly decide to police that off your own bat?
Hi hedgecock:

Let me try to answer it this way. First iím a lot older than most of our posters and other participants here and have much experience dealing successfully with many individuals as well as business entities. And one thing that iíve learned over the years is that when situations sometimes quickly develop people will say things that at the very least arenít well thought out, and they do this as a way to release pressure. (You see this all the time at the poker table.) So I made a decision to delete the thread to allow all parties some time to better prepare their thoughts.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:30 PM   #12
bombonca
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

What is the point of this thread? Why should 2+2 announce Upswing Poker affairs anyway unless its meant to create discussion?
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:31 PM   #13
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

We need a decentralised forum on a blockchain to resist censorship. Let's do an ICO crypto Doug!
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:32 PM   #14
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Old 01-07-2018, 08:32 PM   #15
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by WCGRider View Post
My prior statement, while factually accurate, but did not speak to the high quality of work Fernando provided.

Additionally, it was not focused enough on the most important people, the paying members of Upswing Poker.
God only knows where this will go next, but I thought you made some reasonable points in the other thread. It's a shame for both parties that things have gone this way, as it seemed like you were doing something good together; I sympathize with your disappointment. Hopefully, despite the way things have gone down, you will be able to manage the transition as best as possible between you and you don't simply sever ties.

One thing I think JNandez possibly brought to Upswing was a more hands on approach to coaching, and he talks about collaboration with members and trying to evolve the courses and make them dynamic, rather than just creating some content and selling it. I think this is interesting and hopefully something you will pursue without him, not just for PLO but for the other games you cover.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:33 PM   #16
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Surprised Doug didn't make a video detailing all the character flaws & sour dealing with Jnandez like he does to everybody else. 2018 will really be a new year with lots of changes.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:33 PM   #17
Michael Buble
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by WCGRider View Post
It is unfortunate to see him go, but he will be leaving the Upswing Team beginning at the start of April.
Nice to see that the hard feelings have faded so quickly Looking forward to knowing the new coaches. Any time-frame on that, as it will also impact the question whether to request a refund or not?

If Jnandez is starting on his own he might have an incentive not to put his best content out till April. Did he commit to do that regardless?
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:35 PM   #18
the_glaive
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Let me try to answer it this way. First iím a lot older than most of our posters and other participants here and have much experience dealing successfully with many individuals as well as business entities. And one thing that iíve learned over the years is that when situations sometimes quickly develop people will say things that at the very least arenít well thought out, and they do this as a way to release pressure. (You see this all the time at the poker table.) So I made a decision to delete the thread to allow all parties some time to better prepare their thoughts.
Finally, something that makes sense to me. I'm not sure whether deleting everything was the right thing to do, but I agree with the assessment and think this is a kind thing to do, especially where JNandez is concerned.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:50 PM   #19
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi hedgecock:

Let me try to answer it this way. First iím a lot older than most of our posters and other participants here and have much experience dealing successfully with many individuals as well as business entities. And one thing that iíve learned over the years is that when situations sometimes quickly develop people will say things that at the very least arenít well thought out, and they do this as a way to release pressure. (You see this all the time at the poker table.) So I made a decision to delete the thread to allow all parties some time to better prepare their thoughts.

Best wishes,
Mason
Thanks for the reply Mason. I understand the reasoning, but still don't like the deletion of course We are all adults here and Doug and JNandez have been around the block long enough to police their own words (or suffer accordingly if they don't/can't).
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:54 PM   #20
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

I'm just curious where is the line drawn here from a mod perspective. I respect you have the right to ammend, remove as you see fit but this doesnt seem to be consistent across the forum. There are plenty of threads ongoing with "internal" company issues that have recieved little to no mod lines.

It appears (and this is only my opinion) that Doug has shot from the hip with a thread that was badly thought out filled with emotion which forced Fernando to respond and it became a bit of a petty he said/she said.

It was Dougs choice to post here publicily and by doing so he should expect to have to field queries around the statements he made. In my view we should have the right to query some of the statements he made especially if we are paying customers. We now lose that right and get a prepared PR statement that trys to backtrack on previous comments.

I understand it is an emotional time for him but for a respected company owner to come to a public forum and scathe his contractor and then not have to answer to it seems quite biased.

Doug mentions that the most important people, the paying members of Upswing Poker did not receive enough focus in his initial statement.

Seriously? So what focus should we expect.
That we can trust the owner that they will look at their own contracts to protect us?
That the owner has high emotional intelligenece so as not to go public and blame others when they make a mistake?
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:54 PM   #21
Lemon93PCTSure
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Say what you will guys
But it was hilarious to see the actual honest exchange
And then the bull**** PR post that all companies post
You don't get to see the actual people side of the statements in the real business world.


And it would probably hurt Doug's image on his poker channel if it were still a priority
- Doubt he will make a video and poke jabs against Jnand like he does on everyone else after the PR statement here
But you know, that boat has sailed into the Crypto ocean.
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Old 01-07-2018, 09:09 PM   #22
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
So, did you ask for the thread or exchanges to be deleted Doug? I mean, you could have added a post explaining what you've just explained to the original thread. Those words were said, but now they've been 'unsaid' - that's not really how things should work unless things are libelous or downright out of order.
I did not ask for the prior thread to be locked, deleted, or otherwise altered.
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Old 01-07-2018, 09:13 PM   #23
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Doug will this affect the ICO of UpswingCoin?
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Old 01-07-2018, 09:17 PM   #24
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucaspawpaw16 View Post
I'm just curious where is the line drawn here from a mod perspective. I respect you have the right to ammend, remove as you see fit but this doesnt seem to be consistent across the forum. There are plenty of threads ongoing with "internal" company issues that have recieved little to no mod lines.

It appears (and this is only my opinion) that Doug has shot from the hip with a thread that was badly thought out filled with emotion which forced Fernando to respond and it became a bit of a petty he said/she said.

It was Dougs choice to post here publicily and by doing so he should expect to have to field queries around the statements he made. In my view we should have the right to query some of the statements he made especially if we are paying customers. We now lose that right and get a prepared PR statement that trys to backtrack on previous comments.

I understand it is an emotional time for him but for a respected company owner to come to a public forum and scathe his contractor and then not have to answer to it seems quite biased.

Doug mentions that the most important people, the paying members of Upswing Poker did not receive enough focus in his initial statement.

Seriously? So what focus should we expect.
That we can trust the owner that they will look at their own contracts to protect us?
That the owner has high emotional intelligenece so as not to go public and blame others when they make a mistake?
For clarity, my prior posts on the subject were accurate. However, the most important part of this process is to move on with the best intent for the PLO Lab customers.

At no point was I planning on making a YouTube video on the subject or otherwise engage on this topic. A video statement has been made to the upswing members, and the entirety of my focus is to ensure a high value course to the members of the PLO lab.
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Old 01-07-2018, 09:18 PM   #25
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Re: JNandez Leaves Upswing Poker Statement Thread

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I did not ask for the prior thread to be locked, deleted, or otherwise altered.
You didn't ask, but were you offered or made aware of it by Mason/anyone and didn't say not to? It is very strange to for them to have gotten involved for no reason. Makes 2+2 look really bad and doesn't do any favors for Upswing either. People obviously care more about the censorship now more than the actual topic of JNandez leaving Upswing.
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