How does jason feel that being gay has affected his life both positively and negatively, professionally and in other aspects. Does he feel that coming out has affected his life positively? Does he feel it could affect others positively?

Please thank him for me.

+1

Question for Jason: Not necessarily now, but how has he dealt with being at live poker tables (friendly games) where half the discussions turn towards "sex" at some point? (basically any discussion which would make him feel different...like some of my favorite comments "gay guys must really like MMA" or "Look at that waitress" or "my girlfriend and I...who are you seeing" etc etc). I generally talk at my local cardroom and I always end up clamming up when the discussions get to this point b/c I end up at a loss for words...which is unusual to say the least

Cliff: There are sexual and gender identities, the dictionary is a horrible source for this, Kardnel's arguement is contradictory or bigoted implicitly, people being able to come out publicly and talk about it is important and it does no harm.

Ok, we've established there is a sexual component to being gay, surprise! Past this point though you really need to think about the whole picture. Firstly there are spectrums of gender identity and sexual identity (so one can identify on a gradient of feeling like a man or a women...which has nothing to do with what you're born with). Then there is sexual identity, who you are attracted to, which can range from men to women or get as complex as you being a women attracted to men who identify AS women...most in the LGBTQ community might categorize that as more of a lesbian relationship than heterosexual.

Keep in mind, the dictionary is a product of heteronormative culture, and while it may not be promoting a straight lifestyle like professional sports it sure as heck would not be the first place I look to find definitions relating to gender/sexual identity and I would most certainly not expect to open my oxford english dictionary to see the entry for "homosexual" over multiple pages precisely defining the many aspects of what that word connotes. I would actually trust wikipedia more in this case for the mere reason that it is more likely to be edited by people who know what they're talking about (and I HATE wiki for academic discussion).

And to get at the heart of your arguement on how people should keep things to themselves, fine, lets accept that as a premise. That means that straight people should not be talking about that girl they went out with last week, or how big that chicks tits are, commercials shouldn't have half naked women in them, TV and Movies shouldn't show content of even remotely graphic sexual intercourse ETC ETC....the list goes on, yes, some of the examples are a bit extreme, but that is essentially what you are asking for, except ONLY asking it of the LGBTQ community... unless you are willing to take that premise and apply it to heterosexual society your arguement must have a premise distinguishing between heterosexuals and LGBT, making it bigoted at its core.

The gay activist movement itself originally prescribed this type of thinking in the 50s and 60s, and through the movements evolution up until Stonewall and the assassination of Milk the community fought over what form of activism was correct. Do your research on these groups and you will easily find all the problems they realized this approach caused.

So if we want to live in a society free of extreme prejudice, and we aren't about to start changing our norms for what we expect straight people to be doing it is NECESSARY for there to be visible homosexual individuals and media content that way the guy sitting in the corner while his friends discuss the attributes of some girl passing by won't be afraid to admit to himself and them that her boyfriend is really kinda cute.

So while, no, I don't watch celebrity news, or give a ****, when I see someone come out publicly it is almost like a small affirmation that things are ok, things are normal. My argument has ended really, but if heternormative culture is going to blast us with stereotype reinforcement what harm does it do for the LGBT activist community to draw attention to itself, making the world feel much more accepting to the rest of us?

very well said. if only that closet wasn't so comfy >.<

I kind of knew all along but didn't really know and engage in those relationships until 19. I spent from 19-30 in the closet debating if I could even stand to let anyone know I might be with a man. I wasn't even comfortable with myself until 25. My parents are Southern Baptists so that probably explains all this. Also makes those who say being gay isn't a big deal wrong as well b/c in this part of the world, and with these kind of folks, it's a huge deal. You might as well say you shoot heroin the way they treat you.

A lot of them would probably prefer a heroin shooter TBH.

I was raised Northern Baptist. Lotta hellfire and brimstone. I'm sorry that upbringing made it so difficult for you to be comfortable with yourself, and I hope you're doing well.

Justin Fashanu

I honestly couldn't follow his writing at all. Each paragraph is one gigantic run on sentence. And I don't see how he even addressed what I wrote at all.

Notoutgimmick:

I don't care when sexual orientation comes up in the media under ordinary circumstances. Broke Back Mountain was a good movie. I enjoy it when someone makes a legitimately funny joke about being gay (not in a hateful way). I encourage news stories about how gay people are specifically discriminated against. I also don't care when a gay person, in a normal conversation, says something like, "Yeah me and my boyfriend..." This last one is a lot different than the person who has to habitually let everyone know this.

What I do care about is, "Guys, I am gay, and that is *awesome* and I am proud of it!" This is completely ******ed to me. It really just doesn't serve any purpose at all.

then stop commenting on it, and gtfo. you obviously lack the intelligence to understand as to why it is a good thing and why it matters and can have a good impact on literally millions of people.

Arguing against what I am saying depends on actually explaining how it is a good thing and "can have an impact on millions of people". If this were true I think people would actually start explaining the *why* part.

Certainly the barrage of personal attacks I am facing isn't supporting that position at all.

If anybody is still arguing that coming out is not a big thing in 2012 then this thread proves them wrong.

Why do you "care" about it then? If it would be so easy to just ignore?

It seems that a few people in this thread acknowledge how difficult and important it is for someone to come out. And how important it is for gays in general to have good role models doing that? Why are you even debating that. Doesn't make sense imo.

I don't think anyone with half a brain thinks that it is "more awesome" if you're gay than if you're hetersosexual. But obviously a lot of gays feel inferior or flawed for a long time. And it's obviously a big step and a great feeling to accept yourself and then to open up to family and friends. And it's a good thing for anybody to say "I am what I am and that is awesome and I'm proud of it." Especially if you struggled accepting it and our society as a whole still is.

FYP. This way it makes sense, imo. Because this way it's 99% celebrating that you're better than somebody else. And yeah, you can replace "American" with any nationality.

Well firstly my posts are always giant run-on sentences so I understand your pain Kardnel. However I do believe you're missing the point and my inability to articulate why is due to the fact that this is a relatively complex issue and I'm trying to synthesize ~60 years of activism that should show why such actions are important.

I reiterate, if you really want to understand why coming out is important start by looking at Harvey Milk and the doctrines he rejected (much more restrictive versions of what you're espousing).

We have explained the "why" part, the issue being it is an inordinate effect. If we just take the example of professional athletics and it's blatant promotion of the hetero-normative as a case study I hope this will explain the "why".

Firstly, we all have role models growing up, or someone to look up to, etc etc...the "why" of that is complicated but I would guess that our younger selves want to idolize someone who we identify with and think is pretty amazing and we want to be like...If you're a queer little league athlete who do you have to look up to? You probably will take on some other athlete as a role model and internally that means "be like them"...if ALL role models are presumed straight that DOES tangibly affect you. It is tantamount to telling a kid "if you want to be a professional athlete you can never admit this publicly, you have to pass" (and "passing" has proven psychological side effects).

Sports is clearly the most stark example, but it is only that, one example. To us "adults" it may not matter that someone comes out because we have already come to terms with who we are, but society not acknowledging the existence of homosexuality publicly is the equivalent of telling every LGBT individual to "pass". Getting rid of that stigma is exactly why Milk emphasized making "coming out" a politically charged action...show the rest of the world that LGBT people exist, are functioning members of society and give younger generations role models.

So there will reach a point where the "celebrity" coming out is unnecessary, and that point will be when everyone is just out to begin with, when society tells its youth that being gay is ok and passing isn't a pre-requisite to a career in sports, politics or buisness. Until that juncture the effect of there NOT being out role models or people to tell our kids its ok despite their idiotic parents/classmates is the much much higher suicide rate among LGBT youth.

And as of yet I really haven't said anything negative about you Kardnel, don't mis-interpret what I'm saying in that manner. I merely understand your point of view and feel it springs from a lack of empathy with those of us who have some sort of first hand knowledge (which is completely acceptable considering you're presumably straight ).

congrats on being a bigot then, buttercup.

Edit: As a (mostly lesbian) trans lady poker player who's had the opportunity to chat with Jason a few times, I gotta say I'm super happy for him. Coming out is a really positive thing and it's awesome that so much support has manifested for him. He's a great guy and that blog really hit me where I live as far as the idea of 'deciding to take happiness in hand'

Edit #2: Ahaha I just read Kardnel's post history in this thread and wow, bigot's putting it mildly

With all the arguing ITT, it might be worthwhile to ask Jason his opinion on those who keep repeating "It's 2012, who cares" or "why does it matter". He did post in the Rainbow Flops thread but I wonder if he has been keeping up with this one.

Definitely tell Jason thanks on behalf of the 2p2 LGBT+ community (thread made me realize there are more of us here than I thought). And thank you, Mike for starting this topic of all places in NVG and bringing greater awareness of the issue.

"It's 2012, who cares" can be answered with links to LGBT suicide rates, employment discrimination, etc.

Anyone who takes the attitude "who cares" is a twit.

I think you're being a bit hard on those people. While I don't necessarily agree with them, as someone earlier stated, these people are not part of the problem -- they are (apparently) tolerant. That's all I really could hope for and in a way I do think its good some people have this mind set.

Here's why it's a good thing:

Because it may help put a dent (maybe not a large one, but a dent nonetheless) on the number of people out there who are discriminated, attacked, or killed. His example can also be inspiring and psychologically helpful to people struggling with personal identity and get them through depression or suicidal thoughts.

Is that so difficult to understand?

This is what's so amazing to me, I've known zero gay players IRL (and believe me, I've tried looking for some ), yet here in this thread alone, 10-15 people have said they're gay. We're everywhere!

Without making any judgement on any poster here who has said, "who cares", I think there's two ways that statement can be interpreted:

1) Who cares, LGB people are everywhere and that's cool so why does one more coming out mean anything?

These people aren't "the problem" in that respect, although they may be blind to the challenges that are still out there for many who live in far less tolerant areas, even in Westernized countries, and they should probably be less glib about the importance to the individual of what it means to finally live openly.

2) Who cares, LGB people exist but they shouldn't be encouraged to come out or speak openly because even though I won't admit it, I find them wrong and creepy and evil and I think "don't ask, don't tell" should apply to all of them at every time.

These people are a huge problem, IMO, because their "who cares" attitude ultimately stems from intolerance and bigotry. Their credo is "it's fine as long as I don't have to know about it". When confronted by evidence of LGB individuals as more than just a mythical abstract, they espouse a "who cares, you shouldn't talk about that stuff in public" attitude, while of course they are usually fine with typical displays of heteronormative behavior.

Here's the thing, and here's why I'm hard on them. They *are* part of the problem. Maybe not as big as part as the group that's out there beating up and murdering gay people, but definitely a part of the problem.

When you say 'who cares' you're about an inch away from going 'it's fine just don't shove it in my face'. Heterosexuality is constantly 'shoved in the faces' of those of us who don't fit into that dynamic, and the fact that people can be assumed to be straight without any declaration to the contrary is an example of the power and the oppressive majority status that heterosexuality possesses.

Honestly alot of this stuff is really hard to explain to people who lack at least a basic understanding in power interactions, privilege, and things of that nature, so I apologise if my explanation is a bit short or hard to follow.

Edit: SGT hit it on the nose. Sometimes I forget how simple stuff can be since I've been frolicking in discussions of oppression and privilege and feminism for too long :P

Yeah, I guess I should of thought about the distinction between the "who care"-ers like you two ladies did. Level one thinking on my part >_<

I think this gets to the root of what I think about the issue, only I think that what % of people make up a certain group has no bearing at all on how stupid it is. I think national pride is stupid, I think gay pride is stupid, I think Asian pride is stupid and I think white pride is stupid. The one "pride" group that a huge % of people actually accept (albeit super polarizing), besides the extremely embarrassing national pride, is gay pride. And it sure isn't excusable to me even if half of the country hates gay people.

Most of the time I do just ignore it. For some reason or another I decided to comment on this one - probably because it seemed especially stupid to me that some random no name poker player now gained way more popularity, just because he is gay. It was probably that fact that had me especially rolling my eyes. At least when it comes up in most other media it isn't just some random guy that people are turning into a hero for no reason at all.

I think this is an interesting point but I don't agree with it. When I was a kid I certainly had role models. But I never knew the sexual orientation of these people at all. It wasn't something I even thought of at all. When a sports star comes on the TV and does an interview, or plays a game, the subject of sex or relationships almost never comes up. Sex was mostly not allowed in any sort of media made for audiences below teen years. What you're saying does apply to people in the 13-17 or so range, I suppose, because in adult movies there is mostly heterosexual only romance. However I am not sure how celebrities publicly announcing their sexual preferences fits into this at all.

I think that is a huge, completely unsubstantiated claim and I don't understand how that is true at all.

And no SGT RJ I am not saying gay people should try to hide their sexual preference. If gay people want to carry on publicly like any other individual/couple would, given what is socially acceptable in that place, then power to them. I actually think they should do this and that doing *this*, the organic act of living life in the way you want, is going to be the strongest evidence to the opposition that nothing is wrong with being gay.

Didn't know that having 5 wsop ft's and a bracelet made some1 a no named player

fwiw kard, even if you still dont get it, I personally would have came out sooner if i had known of major athletes/celebrities who were openly gay and who came out during a time in their lives where it wasn't easy for them to. Others i have spoken to have felt the same way. The thing is, is that there are very very very few openly gay people in the spotlight, and the few that are, generally fit stereotypes (at least until recently). The more openly gay people that kids/teens/adults can look up to and aspire to be like, the more people will see that we are normal, and that it isn't a big deal and dosn't make us any "different".

The way you have been defending your views on it have been fairly bigoted, although not terribly so. Mostly you are just ignorant as to how badly most gay people have it, and how positive of an impact having more gay people spotlight could have.

edit: agree wholeheartedly again with NotOut and Palikari

To sum this up, of course YOU never thought of it...you're straight, it's almost like a given that you're heroes would be straight in your mind (even if they weren't). Kardnel you've shown an exceptional lack of empathy and an ability to keep repeating yourself despite what I see as pretty airtight logical arguments being thrown against you.

Addressing the last sentence my last post pretty clearly covered that and if you want to make an argument against it please make an actual argument...not just say that I don't have one.

The ultimate point against you btw is that JS's actions do you NO harm and we are claiming there are tangible benefits to such action then there should be NO reason to discourage such action. You've never once said that pride has a tangible negative effect on society other than we all now know who JCarver is now (although he isn't as "no-name" as you say...I certainly knew his name before this just from poker stuff).

And I would appreciate you actually engaging with the topic rather than just repeating yourself and making me want to become an NVG troll for the rest of my life. In my mind the debate is over, although that's what I thought when I came to common ground with Pizdec, then you posted, don't think common ground will be reached with you so I throw in the towel (at least for now or until I see something that makes my blood boil again...because I really am a forum troll with too much time on my hands). I do hope you realize that as tolerant as you may feel you are your systems of belief are based on an inherently bigoted premise.

You should reread my post. There is a huge difference between "national pride" and "gay pride".

"National pride" is usually a way of demonstrating that you are "better" than another nation. This in itself is ******ed.

"Gay pride" is as far as I have experienced it is a celebration of yourself. Accepting yourself. And being proud of yourself. Especially in an environment that still tries to discriminate and put you down. That is a very good thing, especially for kids that grow up, are unsure of themselves, being picked on etc. to say out loud "I'm gay and I'm proud of it."

Essentially it is nothing else than saying "I'm proud of myself". Which everybody should be able to say.

There might be gay people that use "gay pride" the way nationalistic morons use it. I haven't met any of them ever. And I'm every year at the CSD.


lol. Are you serious? Or are you now openly trolling?