I didn't cook the pasta, I just served it.

Thanks, I do watch Rick and Morty, I don't understand it but it is entertaining.

Is that like playing recreational poker or betting on sports for fun ?

Lol! Tanking sucks. Not fair to anyone that wants to play quicker (aka almost all recs/fish/whales, and smart pros). I mean more hands = more money for winners right? And more hands = more action for the recs/fish/whales. Easy game.

In any other sport, to be elite is to be able to perform adeptly at speed. I've seen soccer players who work at Walmart with all the technique in the world who would be on top of the world if afforded the time and space to play at walking pace. Instead it's Ronaldo with his quickness of feet, quickness of mind.

These self-styled poker scholars have had it too good for too long. Shot clock to save the game.

I know what your getting at it, you can take some time and tank to balance those things out, to be perfectly balanced you'd need to tank every decision where where it's possible your timing could give information away, for any hand in your range. The frequencies wouldn't match up evenly otherwise.

The example you cite, i think you underestimate how even trivial things like that gives info away in many ways, 1 example here:

The example you give is one some tiny amount of information is given away, but not much, and not really enough to justify tanking imo. if you snap fold every time you have a clear fold, it weights your range towards weaker hands, which means the person who 3bet you has slightly less 3bet bluff hands with low cards, like a suited connector. I'd prefer a more realistic scenario since playing 62o pre is just not good and not something i can make a relatable example with. Say for example you open 18% of hands from EP, you snap fold when someone 4bet shoves BB after you 3bet from SB, it means you are less likely to have any hands that could have had a tough decision, marginally called, like TT/JJ, for example. the person who 3bet you could take some small weighting and assume the 4bettor is more likely to have AKo than a hand like TT/JJ, and call with 99's more frequently. This is something that gives a very small amount of info away, and most do not tank in these spots because of how marginal it is. (I usually don't). So yes, tanking when you have a clear fold when someone has 4bet shove over a 3bet is something you'll want to do to not give info away.

Really anyone who is paying attention knows timing's like this affect card removal for preflop ranges, in a high level game. (not 1/2 live at a casino).

There are certainly regulars that soul owned me in the past when i wasn't careful with timings, and didn't tank enough.

basically in any spot where there is the possibility of having a tough decision, one you really need to think through for a long time, you will need to tank those spots with every trivial decision.

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Now for points on the rest of what people have said here:

The people saying most of jason koon's thought process are things that are automatic, sure, that's true. but you don't want to be a habitual thinker in poker that's autopiloting all of those important points, thinking about what someone's range is, ect. You can automatically come up with answers there based on previous study, but the more time you think about it, you can get to a higher ev decision. So jason koons argument still holds imo.

To people saying that tanking kills the poker economy, i agree, it is obviously a tradgedy of the commons type situation. im still going to tank anyway, because i get to win money as an individual and i prefer thinking over my decisions to try and make the highest ev play.

Stroggoz,

Your tanking makes you see less hands per hour. So unless your tanking EV is higher than volume (which it isn't) you are shooting yourself in the foot.

Also, how selfish and myopic. I truly hope this is a level because I've reread your example multiple times and it has to be one of the dumbest things I've seen in a while. You are vastly overestimating your intellect if you think timing is balancing the books on card removal for your genius strategy.

Most of this crap is either TV time milking, or trying to sell some LAG image that they really aren't playing...like ohh I almost 3 bet you there and there and there, then when they do 3 bet of course they have KK.

Wouldn't you rather he call off with 99 here and maybe bust out if we are deep in tourney? Also, if he has 99 then he wants you to have folded aces and kings in your hand right? He isn't worried about JJ he is worried about AA too lol.

What happened to no strat in NVG?

Who watches poker anymore anyway anyhow?

Daniel Negreanu said that everything that we do at the table conveys information.

Problem with tanking sometimes then making quick decisions at other times then making medium length decisions at other times can convey decision speed tells. May as well tank all of the time and make everything uniform.

This is the rationale Chris Ferguson gave when he said that every time he made up his mind quickly he would deliberately cup his hands over his mouth, then count to 50 before acting in order to simulate tanking even when he didn't have to.

Yeah, shot clocks would solve things quickly.

So it's unanimous. Put a ****ing shot clock on and /thread.

People need to speak up and make it happen.

It's really pretty crazy it hasn't happened yet.

There’s at least a few hundred thousand people who regularly watch YouTube content.

I like watching the Triton cash games to see Linus Loeliger.

Does he tank ?

it would've been way less distasteful if he just a prick and gave the honest, non self aggrandizing answer:

each decision is worth a lot of money. i'll tank for 30 seconds as often as I damn well please. don't be bitter because you're playing cheeseburger stakes where slightly better decisions only add up to the tip you're not giving the waitress for your diet coke.

He acts pretty normal speed to me. But so does everyone else at the table. I would think the Chinese billionaire community wouldn't put up with the tanking antics for very long. I assume you would likely not get invited back to many games if you're playing like Doc Sands.

Stroggoz, I appreciate your taking the time to reply. However...

For what it's worth, I think you might have misunderstood my example. I'm not taking about raising with 62o, then facing a three-bet. I'm saying one player in front of you raised, then a second one three-bet. Then the action is on you with 62o. You've committed nothing to the pot thus far, and you're facing a raise and a three-bet with a weak hand.

What info would you be giving away by just folding there with no deliberation?

How is mine NOT a "realistic scenario" or a "relatable example?" The majority of the time, you get dealt a hand with little equity, and quite often, you have such a holding with action in front of you.

I gave that as an example because it is PRECISELY the situation where a player's tanking seems unnecessary. And that was the crux of my question, which I guess remains unanswered because you chose to answer something I didn't ask.

No, and well played sir. He was the fastest acting and played the best of all the pros at the recent Triton with Tony G.

It must suck to be the pros when the whale/donkey/sucker/live one (or whatever you wanna call him) that you're trying to skin alive is finally at your table and he winds up dominating all of you as TONY G just did at the Triton cash game....

....leaving the pros rationalizing that they actually won in the "long run" even though you have half a million less cash. TONY G's decision tree probably has less than 3 variables compared to Koon's 21 variables which is probably alike those of the pros that played against Tony G.

What do you mean rationalizing they won in the longrun? All pros on that table you mentioned would happily chain themselves to a table with him and play him until their eyes start bleeding...

Im pretty sure Stroggoz is trolling here, though it's rather subtle (wp if he is)

as for main subject, one thing that isn't really mentioned here is how pros tanking affect recreational player. All habitual tankers that I've met in live games were recreational players, who do this because they saw it on tv and now they think that's what you're supposed to do when you play poker. So, yeah, even disregarding discussions about EV for HS pros, this is just bad for games in general and shot clocks are the only answer.

I don`t know if that is such a good idea. If the pros makes +EV decision in every hand, all streets, there is not unlikely that they will run out of money and then not be able to realize their EV because they are busto. On the other hand there is possible to see if another human is nervous/comfortable or not. If you can figure out why the person is acting like he is doing, you can make constantly -EV decisions and come out on top because you exploit him. The proof out of this is Vogelsang. He has in the past covered himself in a way that you think he has both changed religion and sex. The reason behind that is because he is smart. He knows that he is not good at covering up his body language and in my eyes he is the cleaver one. Understanding his weakness and then doing something about it is not actually common in poker.

You can do it as a metaphor as well. After a winning streak two persons have completely different perspective.

Jason Koon: looking into the mirror and thinking; I must be God
Fedor Holz: looking into the mirror and thinking; I have realized my EV now

How is the smarter? The one quitting on top realizing most of his EV or the one which is keeping playing?

im not trying to sound "/r/iamverysmart" but most of the answers to these questions, maybe 95% of them, come to you within 2 seconds when playing. You know whats good or isnt, your betsize % almost instantly when the card hits. However, ive never played live and i think it would take 20 seconds every street to work out betsizing in relation to whateever thepot size is and constantly calculate stackdepth.

I bet if most top regs played just one table online, they could drastically shorten timebanks and the top regs would play pretty similar to how they do now. I could very wrong here and thats the reason why im not at highstakes and why im a **** reg.

If you want to speed up the game, come up with some way to do automatic stack-depth + pot size. That will speed up the game so much imo.

I think the people who use their shot clock time to fold even standard folds are **** idiots tho

Attitudes like this are way poker gets worse and worse

In fact the higher up you go the worse the consequences of this behavior
In low stakes games fish are a lot more plentiful and easier to replace
In higher stakes game this isn't the case
But people piss them off anyway ,ruin the fun and wonder where they went

Although it is amusing when some habitual tanker has a real decision for once and flips out when the clock is called