I was in Florida for a few weeks and played at Seminol Hard Rock. Rake was 10% up to $5 and $2 for hourly high hands of only $350 and $700 I believe Depending on the hour. Horrible I know. At first I didnt understand why the dealers held a $400 bank then I just saw the racks of $1 and $2 chips turn into $5s really fast. I was at a 1 2 game buyin in up to $300... $200 going into the drop every hour... sickening.

Hi Chenoa:

An over looked point is that players who don't tip or tip very little still help start games and keep them going so that other players can tip the dealer.

Best wishes,
Mason

Hi Three M:

How about paying an extra $20-$30 a night so that the fish can go broke sooner. Isn't this what a jackpot drop does to most live ones?

Best wishes,
Mason

Not really. Especially when it gives the fish an extra way to win they wouldn't normally have.

As someone who plays in Los Angeles, this topic could not be more untrue. The best games in the world are here and they have jackpots. The recreational players love them.

Hi aces:

To me, Los Angeles has always been an exception. What I think happens here is that the population base is so big that whenever someone quits playing, there's a new novice player to take his place. Thus, in a strange sort of way, those things, and this includes high rake, which are so bad for poker virtually every place else may not be so bad for those LA players who already play well because there are always bad players to play against.

Best wishes,
mason

In LA... People will pay a $1 collection to place a $5 blackjack bet on a game that pays even money for black jack...........

FWIW... The jackpot drops in LA are only $1 (unless it has changed very recently)... The worst part is the rake... Once flop, full rake comes out, not a capped percentage.

agreed jackpots are a scummy business...the online poker site Betonline takes 15% of each jackpot in "administrative fees"

Respectfully and violently disagree with your suggestion that various jackpots on poker tables are bad for the game.

Even at $2 jackpot , that takes about $60/hour off a table. That's only 1/3ish buyin. Thus the question is does jackpot bring more than 1/3 buyin per hour into the game from increased overall buyins

I'd say almost assuredly it does.

Whether its a BBJ, or more frequent high hand bonus, rooms get busier, the larger they get. (separate discussion on the effect and benefit of the two different type jackpots but, cliff notes: same as slot machine pay table psychology)

That fact alone suggests jackpots drive action.

Side Note.
Mason is correct, not all poker markets are the same and so your mileage may vary. But generally across the US the above is true.

Can't agree with OP. OP, if you are not beating the game at 8-10 bigs per hour you are not really optimized at whatever stakes you are playing. To say some of these jackpots are cutting into win rates so badly vs. the benefit of bringing in fish on off days especially when the room would otherwise be dead - just not sure I am getting it here. Also, the amount of money coming off the table isn't even close to like half a buy in at even the lowest stakes at 1/3?

No. This is like saying if you allow smoking tables and non-smoking tables to see which ones are more popular. Everyone knows in general smokers are worse players, so even the non-smokers will play on the smoking tables so they can win more money.

Jackpots may increase volume for one casino that offers it when it gets high, but at the expense of one that does not. If nobody offered them, I bet the number of players would be the same overall. They will play anyway. Just ban this jackpot poker cancer before it is too late and kills the entire poker economy.

what is an OMC?

OMC = Old Man Coffee

It's an acronym for "Old Man Coffee" from a 2009 OP by 'rumnchess' as far as I know.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...-poker-647725/

While this is true, your assertion that its a net no gain is just conjecture.

The easiest way to analyze this is at a single table. If promotions that attract more players are not worth 1/3rd or 1/2 buyin per hour then something else is wrong with room, that game/limit or the promotion.

Also agree with what Pardo G said. If the removal of 8-10bigs per hour have any impact on your win rate, you are playing on the wrong games.


pure hyperbole

If you made $16 an hour at $2 rake 30 years ago, and win 3 hands an hour, your win was $22 an hour before rake. Now the rake is $5, and you pay $9 more per hour and your win falls over 50% to $7. Now add a $1 jackpot rake and it goes down to $4 an hour. Add a 2nd $1 jackpot and you are down to $1. If you tip $1 a hand, you are now a -$2/hr loser. Poker is dying because of this. (granted not every pot is max raked)
If you raised the limit from 1-2 to 1-3 that would help offset the higher rake by earning $8 more per hour (with 8bb win rate)

UIGEA passed shortly after. Party left the US market even before the law took effect, and they ended the promotion, so we never got to find out.

No experiments are needed anymore. It's obvious that the jackpots are good for the rooms, not bad. The proof is in the pudding. These jackpots may be getting more numerous, but they have been around a while. Many casinos have had these for 5+ years and non of them ever switch back to not having jackpots. The experiment is over! Jackpots won out. Even rooms that were deadset against it eventually caved. ( Except Bellagio, where they have fame and keep the room small so it's always full no matter what they offer)

Even parts of the country where casinos are spread far apart they mostly have jackpots now, it's not because the guy next door has it like Vegas.

If they were bad for the room it would have been found out years ago and places would be ditching them. You think they want less players ?? If the jackpot constant was just introduced there could be an argument made. But these have been around a long time now. Experiment is over.


The players who care about the extra jackpot rake are worse for the game then the OMC's!!!

Right now Venetian has a high hand every 30 min for $500 and bad beat jackpot of $50k

While I'm not a fan of the increased rake because of the promotion there are definitely more bad players playing now because of the promotion not strictly OMC's.

More bad players are good for poker and if you win the high hand a few times it offsets the extra rake. It's not an ideal situation but an increased win rate because of the more bad players who "want to get lucky" playing and a few extra bucks in your pocket because of the high hand, I think is worth it.

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Venetian takes $2 jackpot rake at $10 now + standard $1 every $10 up to $50. 30% rake on a $10 pot. Poker RIP.

Maybe in the past poker room A and poker room B had no jackpot but Room A had more players due to a better location or atmosphere. So room B starts a jackpot rake and the suckers then say "hey I am going to room B to win a jackpot", but not caring about the brutal rake. The good players then have their games dry up in room A as the suckers all went to room B, so they go there too. Then Room A caves and starts a jackpot to get them back. So then most go back to Room A. Then Room B goes to $2 and gives bigger jackpot, so the suckers go back to Room B again. And the jackpot wars ensue. When will it ever end??? 10% $5 + $5? $6? $7 jackpot rake per hand in 10 years?

Red Rock is taking the first jackpot dollar on the flop regardless of the pot size too.

Sounds more like the action on whatever room RedOak likes to play in has dried up and he's looking to blame something.

IMO there are still too many rooms operating in Vegas and more need to close.

Has nothing to do with jackpots.

Not really. According the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Inflation Calculator, $2 in January 1988 is equivalent to $4.36 in November 2018. So the rake itself really hasn't changed much. And the promotion money that is taken out of each pot these days brings players into the poker room and is returned to the players, so that isn't really a detriment to the casual or recreational player. I'm sorry if that upsets headphone-wearing, iPhone-watching, low-limit nit regs who are attempting to make a living at the expense of those of us who come to the poker room to have fun.

$5 + $2 is standard at every poker room in South Florida (and perhaps all of Florida). The only difference is how they distribute the promo money. The room I play at most frequently usually gives it back most days at the rate of $1,000 - $3,000/hr., usually in the form of high hands of between $500 and $750 every fifteen, twenty or thirty minutes.

http://hialeahparkcasino.com/wp-cont...oker-Promo.pdf


I think you're being overly melodramatic. As I noted above, the $5 + $2 that is being implemented for the first time in Las Vegas has been standard in all poker rooms in South Florida for many years. The poker economy is flourishing here and we don't have anywhere near the number of tourists/recreational poker players that Las Vegas does.

Las Vegas poker will survive the increase to $5 + $2; in fact, as with South Florida, I think it will become standard in time.

Here in Florida the standard rake is 10 % up to $5, with a $2 jackpot drop. Pretty much that way in all the main rooms in the state. The limit and the $1-$2 games are completely unbeatable at those numbers.

People sit down with $ 60 in 2-4 limit games. The cardrooms love it because most pots in that game get to at least a $2 or $3 rake, and the players are there for the jackpot/promos, which these days are high hand promos for the most part and the players are fronting that.

As to $1-$2, do the math. If 9 players sit down with $200 each at $1-$2 NLHE, that's $1800 on the table. Assume the average pot allows for a $3 rake, plus $2 jackpot drop, plus $1 tip, and the table is getting in an average of 25 hands per hour. That means that every hour $150 comes off the table in rake/jackpot/tip.

In 6 hours, half the money is off the table and in the boxes. The House never loses, is at zero risk, and the players are under the delusion that they can "win," especially if they think that hitting a promo makes the game beatable.

Vegas heading in the same direction to drive up numbers because the House always takes a rake and its all about volume of tables.

I'm surprised no one else from Florida provided any of that info yet.

Oh, wait... someone did.


The flaw in your thinking (or rather one of the flaws), is that the same 9 people are never at the table for that six-hour period of time. There is a constant resupply of money added to the table by new players taking the place of those who busted and go home.