Let's stop commenting on how often another poster has posted in this thread.

I call.

i.e. It is possible my read is off, but both the earlier comment from another poster (which I'm too lazy to find) as well as the poster above (and his follow up post) pretty clearly indicate they think the plays are -EV, imo.

I have zero issues with anyone arguing that experts will be more EV raising them than limping. Any other situation (i.e. ones containing non-experts) is very arguable, imo.

GcluelessarguablenoobG

Next time, before you post something stupid, read the complete example.

MM

Hi Everyone:

The price of the book will be $22.22, we are 2+2 after all, and it's 209 pages.

Mason

Would you take $25?

Any ETA on Amazon?

I hope to have the printed version up on Amazon in about a week, and then the kindle by the end of the year.

Mason

No way anyone could understand anything about holdem and think that limping KK is worse than folding it.

But anyone is welcome to try to prove me wrong.

If the data shows the best players in the world cant turn a profit limping KK from the CO five ways, then would you agree?

How about a pair of deuces? Won’t it show a profit after limping five ways? If you believe it does, just play the KK exactly the same way you would play the deuces.

Mason

Sure, if I thought the data was legitimate. Seems unlikely that there will be the sample sizes you're fond of though.

I wonder if at any point it is neutral EV and if the rake then makes it minus EV to limp behind.

This reminds me of people saying having offsuit connectors is better than suited because you won't lose money chasing flushes that miss or get beat by bigger flushes.

If the rake was that high then I'm sure the best play would be to leave the game.

One thing to consider about playing passive with big hands is the fact most live players play to win pots, not stacks. Unless they have the absolute nuts they would much prefer you to fold than call no matter how good their holding is, this way they can relax and move on to the next hand slowly chipping up. This creates for some awkward scenarios for hero when you open with a premium hand and get called by 5 players each thinking of how to get everyone else out of the pot. You open KK and the flop is J88ss and someone check-raises you with 44 because they dont know what else to do. They dont see it as bluffing because they have a pair, but they also dont want to get called because they know that cant be good. You fold because somehow they always have the 8 and then TT wins at showdown instead.

By limping a lot you can essentially survive some of these spastic plays and realize your equity without getting value-bluffed out of every pot.

Oh I left out Tens and Eights. 6 more cards.

Make that 27 bad turn cards.
Over half the deck is a bad card for KK.

Simply, Muck and onto the next hand!
#Shoutout to MasonMalmuth for the further clarifiction! Thanks!

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The whole limping KK behind example reminds me of a situation from Chess, where you have an apparently "weak King" still in the middle of the board, and it isn't castled.


However, the "weak King" is not really weak at all because of the current situation on the Chessboard. The situation is that the King is in such a manner that it can never be attacked. Therefore, the "weak King" is not weak at all.

Yes, it appears "weak" to limp behind with KK in the above example. But if you take into account the potential benefits of:

1. Taking down an uncontested pot (risk free profit! Hooray!). For example if the button raises to $20 and the 4 limpers call, then you take down $104 in risk free profit if everyone folds to your 3! preflop. That's +34.67BB risk free! You can take that to the bank! Or to your mattress! Or to your hollowed out copy of Super System! Basically wherever you stash your delicious newfound and won $$$ cash!

2. Flopping a massively disguised set in a multiway pot with possibilities of winning a huge pot!



Then, my friend you truly are "Seeing all 65 squares".

I remember reading an Ed Miller poker book many years ago and in the introduction he talked of someone having a chess coach in their youth. This chess coach would always say "See all 65 squares". But All-inMcLovin, there are only 64 squares on a chessboard! You can't see 65 squares!

"A-ha!" I say. The point of saying to see all 65, and not 64, squares is to not be too dogmatic or hasty in your thinking. It is instead to see All Possibilities and have an open mind while battling your opponent. So I urge you, the poker player, to see all possibilities on the green felt!

is this real life?

Well the guy did say:

It's very obvious that limping KK will be more profitable than openfolding KK and newguyhere is making some clueless conjecture, though. That's completely different from recommending it as a strategy to new or struggling LLSNL players.

The concept behind this book is interesting, and I'm sure some unconventional lines can profit in soft LLSNL games. However, surely material for weak players in soft games should focus on fundamentally sound play and learning basics to a level that wins at live 1/2 1/3 (not that high), and should not revolve around weird, speculative tricks that completely reject the basics of the game. "Raise with your best hands" should not be controversial advice to give to someone struggling at live 1/2. "Overlimp your KK' should be laughed out of the room.

Yes it’s real life where someone reads and unfortunately doesn’t understand a post and context in which it was made

Should add 13 more pages with examples of overlimping AA, ldo.

Gyou'rewelcome,I'llexpectanacknowledgementinthe"Sp ecialThanks"sectionG

No offense but why would you play 6000 hours of live 1/3? You're making 20/hr? Don't people at McDonalds make close to that with zero risk/variance/bankroll? I mean that's great you're making money at 1/3 but you're trading your time which is way more valuable than 20/hr - I would move up to 2/5 immediately with intent to go to 5/10 and above.

I can only assume the sample would be pretty small because the best players in the world probably don't make a habit out of limping from the CO

That’s not how Solvers work


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is there a solver for 7-way limped pots?

You don't need a solver to tell you limping kings from the co is bad

That’s not the question though