theres a common type of loose player who plays way too many hands pre flop and if they decide to continue with them basically go "all the way". how is it not more profitable to "open up" against this common type of fish in position? you basically have them to yourself which is a dream scenario. if you kept super tight someone else will send them to the rail before you wake up with aces or whatever. am i misreading your post?

Yes this.

You loosen up vs fish, you don't tighten up.

Fish literally misplay every street, in what world would you ever want to play tight vs them?

MDA also show's us that fish under 3bet relative regulars, so you would open MORE hands not less, even if they somehow played well postflop.

oh I wouldnt. personally its best to just keep your strategy the same. unless you can see their cards, you have no idea what freqs they have and without that information, you really dont know if they are playing too wide that often or if it was just a hand or two to throw you off.


Ill respond to limon later

I won't spoil any more of David's books but on page 161 of The Theory of Poker Applied to No-Limit, David wrote about this very topic. There are some bonus chapters in the book that co-relate to this. David's thoughts on GTO in Chapter 19 of this book make a lot of sense to me personally.

I mentioned playing small pps in ep. Possibly opening small or with a limp. Also, overcalling preflop with small pps and suited aces to potentially win big pots. Generally bet biggish if you are going to bet the pot, particularly in limped pots.

3-betting approaches have to be different. For one thing multi-way. Also, some players are limping and only raising tight ranges, so those should only be 3-bet with a strong range. 3-bets tend to get called a lot, often multiway, but 3-bets will be interpreted as like QQ+/AK by many players. Generally, also fold to 3-bets without strong hands or good hands to draw to unless the 3-bettor is a reg or has been seen to 3-bet frequently or light. Often also, you can put the 3-bettor on an overpair or TPTK with AK and fold or extract accordingly.

It is really hard to discuss GTO postflop. Applying some GTO principles correctly will help. However, solvers to not deal with 4 or more way pots, particularly with really bad players.

This is obviously excellent advice for experienced good players. For less experienced intermediates who want to be sure they have an edge it may not be, at least as far as their own stack is concerned. (Notice that the KK limp/fold is a lot easier to execute than the typical tactic which can leave too much money on the table for that intermediate to negotiate well. Thus, if the hourly rate of that simpler play is in the same ballpark as the routine play even for experts, it not only increases the income of the intermediate, but also the income of the people who make money when the intermediate does well after reading about the play.)

If you play well postflop, you can play more hands against bad players. You can also just play a solid range and have an advantage versus their junk.

I don't think GTO says what hands to come in as the 3rd caller of a raise with. However, the ranges are standard GTO type ranges. You should generally call with any pp or suited ace. Suited connectors/ gappers and marginal high card hands are borderline.

Deuce. Give it a rest bud.

It's not like you can ever be a winning player with such a strategy anyways.

I am OK with the KK overlimp based on specific reads. However, it is going to be a limped pot about 80$ of the time without reads, which would be a disaster. You also refer to it as a limp/fold, which it isn't preflop, whether or not the flop fold was a good play. It is pretty bad advice to suggest a weaker play make this sort of play. A weaker or amateur player is not going to be able to evaluate the right time to make an unusual play. Also, in general, you would need an ace high flop or a some 3-flush connected flop to fold KK to a flop bet. Once you go to the flop like 8-way, which you generally should not do with KK, then there is more reason to fold to action on a J97 flop, but generally that is also not correct advice.

The overlimp might be more playable in a 2/5 game, when there are more likely to be regs automatically raising limps. Then of course there are more problems with being face up. Even if the 3-bet limping in that position is not interpreted as usually AA/KK, it may appear more likely you have a big pair when your postflop action is consistent with it, such as you are trying to get in stacks.

The KK flop fold is even more horrific when you factor in the KK was in absolute position.

Not sure he has absolute position. There were probably limpers after him.

The value of KK in an 8-way limped pot is limited. Not only did you not build the pot, but it is often going to lose, and you have negative implied odds to some extent. You have only one pair and it is easy for someone to have 2-pair or whatever. There may be reasons to risk it, but the 3-bet make you a little face up even as an overlimper.

Tell us more deuce.

Yes this is the way. More deuce.

Thank you. Maybe if I keep it up I can become a legend. What do you need to do to be a legend?

Try to put others first in your life. Be generous, be thoughtful, and live out your calling for them. The more you impact people's lives, the more likely you are to be remembered by them and become a legend.

Oh, I thought you were a literal legend like Limon. In the old days, if you had a city in your name, it meant you were good, like Amarillo Slim.

.

this book will not go over pre flop startign hands I dont think

This is absolutely, positively untrue.

It is my observation, for example, that in the typical LOLive 1-3 game, the population Simply. Does. Not. Three-bet. Enough. And when the opposition does not three-bet enough, the smart money can get away with raising a substantially wider range.

Let us suppose that, [mirablile dictu,[/i] the action is folded to us on the button, and we strongly suspect that the players in the blinds have three-betting ranges that look like {JJ+, AKs, AKo}. That is only 3% of all dealt hands. If everyone in the game were playing solver-derived ranges, we would expect the big blind to be three-betting somthing like 13-15% of dealt hands. That is a huge difference, and solvers tell us that, even if the BB played perfect Nash postflop (ha!) our opening range can be dramatically wider, simply because we don't face three-bets from the blinds very often.

I should say that I have not seen specific data for live low-stakes games, simply because it is pretty much impossible to collect. But I have seen analyses of online play that show that (1) the typical online 6max reg three-bets their big blind versus a button open 11.6% of the time, instead of the solver-recommended 13-15%. And when you node-lock a solver to account for this under-three-betting, the button's opening range expands from 43% to 58%. This is a huge jump, basically adding 200 more combos to the button's opening range. And this, again, is against a typical online reg, not your basic LOLive low-stakes mouth breather..

So no, MDA and solvers tell us quite unambiguously to play wider ranges against typical players than against ideal players.

For those wondering, I think we'll have the printed version up and available on Amazon in about two weeks, and the kindle should be up and available on Amazon around the first of the year.

Mason

Btn vs bb hu in 3! Pot is a very specific situation where one player has absolute position

Do you have an msrp?

I don't see the relevance of button open raises to 1/3 or even 2/5 NL. There is no point in stealing the blinds. Even if they don't rake it, it is $4 and you pay $1 tip. The blinds will probably defend wide to a raise to like $10, and rarely 3!. However, it will usually be a multiway pot to you on the button, often with limpers. GTO can be sort of applied to some postflop situations. However, I don't see how it helps us determine how lose to play in 1/3 from the discussion presented here.

29.95$ or 39.95$ is my guess