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Old 07-12-2018, 04:11 AM   #51
borg23
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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Originally Posted by Toupee Jay View Post
Andrew, you just learned a cheap lesson. ANYTIME you are gambling ANYWHERE you have to look out for yourself! I have seen it all in my lifetime and you absolutely can get ripped off in a casino, even a big one. I've been cold decked, shorted when cashing out, had a bust out dealer brought in when I was card counting at 21, and been the recipient of some of the worst hometown decisions ever. Be on your guard at all times! That's the best advice i can give you.
what's a bust out dealer?
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:22 AM   #52
BDHarrison
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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what's a bust out dealer?
It's a dealer whose job is to cheat in favor of the casino and bust out players who have been running hot (or counting cards). Maybe they existed in the days when the mob ran Vegas casinos, but I doubt they are used in corporate-run casinos that have 6:5 blackjack.
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:27 AM   #53
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

Whenever I get up from a live table I take all large denomination chips and any bills and very clearly state to the table/dealer "removing $xxx while going on break". When I come back I make a similar statement about returning the money to my stack. It's not that hard and I have no idea why people are OK with leaving large amounts of money in a vulnerable position. Forget what the casino "should" be responsible for and just use some common sense.

-BD
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:27 AM   #54
BEANO52
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

For future reference, request a box when leaving for dinner. Floor will normally count your stack, put a post it with the count on your stack and cover with a clear box (and sometimes allow a "play over").

I believe they (casino & gaming) will say it is your responsibility to monitor your chips and leaving them unattended is your risk.

GL but that hundred is likely gone.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:01 AM   #55
FrankyRizzo
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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In before Allen Kessler bumps this thread in the year 2023 declaring it "unbelievable".
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:27 AM   #56
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

Are you sure you didn't have chips of a different value when you came back? I know that many times when a player has been gone, if the dealer needed to make change, they've used chips from someone else's stack. Was there a black in your stack where there wasn't before? Or 20 5 dollar chips? This seems like at least a possibility, maybe the dealer wasn't even involved, I've seen players make change from absent players stacks before, not robbing them, always giving the right change, even when the other party was not present for the exchange.

That being said, this should have been visible on the video. However, the simplest explanation is the floor missed it while reviewing the video. The far more complicated reason is they're out to rob you. Think about it, a floor would have no incentive to lie in this situation, but they would have incentive to be lazy and not review the video carefully.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:00 AM   #57
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
It's a dealer whose job is to cheat in favor of the casino and bust out players who have been running hot (or counting cards). Maybe they existed in the days when the mob ran Vegas casinos, but I doubt they are used in corporate-run casinos that have 6:5 blackjack.
Correct. This happened around 1990 at the Flamingo Hilton in Reno. It was early in the AM hours and I was betting $5-50 on two hands with a two deck dealer. There was no shoe. There were very few people in the pit and I was the only one at my table. After an hour or so I had them stuck a little over a grand and they brought in this little Asian (Chinese?) lady. I noticed right away how well she riffled the cards, expertly in her small hands. I was starting each new deck with small bets and when the count got good moving up to $40 or $50 a hand. I wasn't making a killing but it was a winning strategy.

The first time I bet $50 on both hands, she dealt me two pat hands (eighteen or nineteen each) and gave herself a ten up. I faintly heard a very soft sound when she dealt her down card. When it was her turn to act, she slowly looked at the card and lo and behold it was an Ace. I lost $100. A few hands later it came up again. I had two $50 bets and got two pat hands. She also had a ten up. This time I distinctly heard an almost inaudible clicking sound when she dealt her down card. Yep, it was an Ace again. She just smiled at me and took my bets. I was done, still over $900 winner.

When I got up the floorman walked over and asked me sarcastically, "gonna hit and run?" I just smiled back and him and took my chips and cashed out. Later on I talked to a buddy of mine who was a pretty good card mechanic. He said she was probably dealing seconds or possibly even putting the Ace on the bottom. Live and learn. The casinos are not in business to let you win!
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:15 AM   #58
Toupee Jay
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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Make it a habit to take pics of your stacks on breaks. Tourneys or cash. Mistakes and scummy things happen all the time. Need to protect yourself and always have some sort of proof. It only takes 1 second.
There has been more than one incident where a high limit player left a stack of hundreds under or next to his chips at the table while he made a quick bathroom break (maybe only five minutes). Someone who was watching the game walks quickly to the table while a hand is in progress and grabs the cash and makes a dash out of there. It happened so fast that no one had a chance to react until he was already long gone. Security has no chance to catch this guy before he hit the door. That money is gone forever!
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:28 AM   #59
Mr_Mxyztplk
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

If you want to pursue it and have it further investigated contact the gaming control board.
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:03 PM   #60
BMOL33
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

I want to say it was either Ameristar in KC or Cherokee in Tulsa where someone pulled the fire alarm about a decade ago and when everyone evacuated they cleaned out most of the big stacks on the 2/5s and 5/10 table. I heard that story and recently when I was playing in Pittsburgh the alarm went off I took my entire stack and one of the floor was yelling at me and I said uh yeah. I know where someone pulled the alarm to clean off tables
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:13 PM   #61
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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Originally Posted by Toupee Jay View Post
Correct. This happened around 1990 at the Flamingo Hilton in Reno. It was early in the AM hours and I was betting $5-50 on two hands with a two deck dealer. There was no shoe. There were very few people in the pit and I was the only one at my table. After an hour or so I had them stuck a little over a grand and they brought in this little Asian (Chinese?) lady. I noticed right away how well she riffled the cards, expertly in her small hands. I was starting each new deck with small bets and when the count got good moving up to $40 or $50 a hand. I wasn't making a killing but it was a winning strategy.

The first time I bet $50 on both hands, she dealt me two pat hands (eighteen or nineteen each) and gave herself a ten up. I faintly heard a very soft sound when she dealt her down card. When it was her turn to act, she slowly looked at the card and lo and behold it was an Ace. I lost $100. A few hands later it came up again. I had two $50 bets and got two pat hands. She also had a ten up. This time I distinctly heard an almost inaudible clicking sound when she dealt her down card. Yep, it was an Ace again. She just smiled at me and took my bets. I was done, still over $900 winner.

When I got up the floorman walked over and asked me sarcastically, "gonna hit and run?" I just smiled back and him and took my chips and cashed out. Later on I talked to a buddy of mine who was a pretty good card mechanic. He said she was probably dealing seconds or possibly even putting the Ace on the bottom. Live and learn. The casinos are not in business to let you win!
Cool story, bro. Any petroglyphs to support your memory 28 years later ?

(I liked the "expertly ... small hands" detail in your story.)

(FWIW, Hilton re-branded the Reno Hilton as the Flamingo Hilton in 1992. https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknF...tage_Reno.html )
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:18 PM   #62
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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Originally Posted by Toupee Jay View Post
There has been more than one incident where a high limit player left a stack of hundreds under or next to his chips at the table while he made a quick bathroom break (maybe only five minutes). Someone who was watching the game walks quickly to the table while a hand is in progress and grabs the cash and makes a dash out of there. It happened so fast that no one had a chance to react until he was already long gone. Security has no chance to catch this guy before he hit the door. That money is gone forever!
Okay, what about the "other" guys in the "other" incidents ? I liked the level of detail in your Flamingo Hilton Reno story better.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:43 PM   #63
EastCoastBalla
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

They reviewed the footage and it was confirmed the op only had 4 green chips. Nobody stole his chips, it was super early in the morning and most likely the op got a little confused. You are wasting too much time op on this for a small amount of money. Just don't play at Flamingo anymore if you are that confident something shady happened.

Lol at you claiming the 3 other players were trouble. You're in Vegas
Half the people are trouble.
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:43 PM   #64
DayTripping
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

I find it much more believable that you were tired and are mistaken about how many chips you had than that the dealer, the floor, the poker room manager, and other players were all involved in a conspiracy to steal $100 from you.
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:01 PM   #65
Philly03
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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What the poker room manager said to you is flat out wrong. However, they have to have proof that your chips were stolen. So if the film shows that, you should get your money back. But, and here's the problem, it doesn't mean the camera was pointed at your table, or even if it was at your table, it doesn't mean they can see your chip stack. But if it's clear that chips were taken from your stack, then the poker room is responsible, and this person should know that.

Best wishes,
Mason
This is false. First of all camera's must cover every sq foot of gaming space in Nevada by law. So a camera 100% saw everything that happened. If it was reported that you had only 100 in green chips I would think you made a mistake. I suppose there's a chance the poker floor didn't wanna deal with it and just lied so he didn't have to deal with it. If I were you I would contact the poker room manager and ask him to look into it.

Also, the poker room is 100% NOT liable. That's not to say they'll never reimburse you but they certainly aren't required to.
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:24 PM   #66
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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This is false. First of all camera's must cover every sq foot of gaming space in Nevada by law. So a camera 100% saw everything that happened. If it was reported that you had only 100 in green chips I would think you made a mistake. I suppose there's a chance the poker floor didn't wanna deal with it and just lied so he didn't have to deal with it. If I were you I would contact the poker room manager and ask him to look into it.
Being able to cover every square foot of gaming space, unless something was recently changed that I don't know about, doesn't mean the camera is focused on the table at that exact time. All it means is that if the casino thinks there might be a problem they can focus the camera on the needed location.

Quote:
Also, the poker room is 100% NOT liable. That's not to say they'll never reimburse you but they certainly aren't required to.
Yes they are. But I don't believe they'll allow you to look at the tape.

Mason

Last edited by whosnext; 07-12-2018 at 06:35 PM. Reason: fixed quoting
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:53 PM   #67
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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This is complete bull crap and the casino should definitely be held responsible....its super fishy that they will not allow him to review the footage (obviously there is something to hide)...why would anyone want to play poker at a casino where there chips are not protected? Makes no sense and I hope this gets solved Andrew, you are a good guy!
No casino will let a player watch the footage outside of a court of law. There’s a chance they let you see a screenshot, that’s it. Reasons for that are pretty obvious.

I also highly doubt any casino will reimburse him unless they can retrieve the chips from the player who stole them.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:03 PM   #68
Toupee Jay
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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Okay, what about the "other" guys in the "other" incidents ? I liked the level of detail in your Flamingo Hilton Reno story better.
These incidents are second hand information, but fairly well known in the poker community. I was never an eye witness to one, probably because I never played high limits. 80-160 at Bellagio is as high as I ever wanted to play. And I was speeding there.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:36 PM   #69
Philly03
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Being able to cover every square foot of gaming space, unless something was recently changed that I don't know about, doesn't mean the camera is focused on the table at that exact time. All it means is that if the casino thinks there might be a problem they can focus the camera on the needed location.



Yes they are. But I don't believe they'll allow you to look at the tape.

Mason
A camera is always focused on every table top. A table cannot even be moved an inch without first reporting to surveillance.

Casinos are definitely not liable.

I was a poker room shift manager in Vegas. I'm aware of the rules.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:12 PM   #70
Gzesh
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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Originally Posted by Philly03 View Post
A camera is always focused on every table top. A table cannot even be moved an inch without first reporting to surveillance.

Casinos are definitely not liable.

I was a poker room shift manager in Vegas. I'm aware of the rules.
STANDARD 3
REQUIRED SURVEILLANCE COVERAGE:
CARD GAMES

The surveillance system of category “A,” “B,” and “C” licensees must possess the capability to monitor and record each card game area, with sufficient coverage to view patrons, dealers, and activities on the card table surfaces.

http://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdoc...ocumentid=2944

(I suspect "capability" falls short of requiring continual focus and active surveillience.)
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:02 AM   #71
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

If a player, like the OP, honestly believes that he was stolen from, the casino should def. do a full investigation with great thoroughness and transparency.

Part of the reason you pay rake is for the security and integrity of the game the casino supposedly provides.

It's never a bad idea to be extra cautious with your chips, but people walking away from their stacks is extremely common practice because it's supposed to be a secure environment.

Obviously no security is foolproof and the casino may not be able to prove or rectify the situation, but they still have an obligation to try.
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:15 AM   #72
Philly03
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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Originally Posted by Cotton Hill View Post
If a player, like the OP, honestly believes that he was stolen from, the casino should def. do a full investigation with great thoroughness and transparency.

Part of the reason you pay rake is for the security and integrity of the game the casino supposedly provides.

It's never a bad idea to be extra cautious with your chips, but people walking away from their stacks is extremely common practice because it's supposed to be a secure environment.

Obviously no security is foolproof and the casino may not be able to prove or rectify the situation, but they still have an obligation to try.
This also opens up the casino to getting scammed. Somebody could have their friend come "steal" their entire stack off a table.
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Old 07-13-2018, 04:25 AM   #73
Seven Deuce
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

in London they give you see through chip cubes to cover your stack when you leave for short periods, so people can play over, and prevent people lifting off your stack
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:05 AM   #74
Gzesh
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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in London they give you see through chip cubes to cover your stack when you leave for short periods, so people can play over, and prevent people lifting off your stack
Curious, in low stakes London play, like 1-2, is the dealing done by the players themselves ?

I seem to recall that practice from playing there a few years ago.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:11 AM   #75
OK2ThePrism
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Re: Incident at Flamingo 1/1 PLO

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Originally Posted by Gzesh View Post
Curious, in low stakes London play, like 1-2, is the dealing done by the players themselves ?

I seem to recall that practice from playing there a few years ago.
No. I haven't seen that in any cardroom in London for many years now.
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