Lol sites at this point should just allow rta, too hard to enforce

Tbh there is a chance it might come this. That the sites will give u an automated tool indicating gto decisions. Pp already has their my game feature, where u can see your stats (vpip pfr 3b steal cbet etc) % and how good you are performing in comparison to gto ranges. At least they are talking abt gto and implying these numbers are gto.

So yeah in the long run there is a high chance they might give a kinda version of this

and how will you enforce that exactly? people will use the card suit, a clock, etc.

so far most of the suggestions in this thread will hurt honest players (you know, the majority of people playing this game) while scumbags find new ways to cheat. lower timebanks is the worst one so far for obvious reasons.

U cannot ban an rng... Literally every Casio calculator that u can buy for 10 bucks has a random number function. U also cannot ban using excel while playing...

Everyone should understand by now that the only thing to prevent this is Webcam which is showing player and screen like they do in high fide online chess tournaments.

Anything else won't help.

The bounty part is problematic because its house money coming off of rake that we are redistributing into the player pool so if house decides value of given bounty any play outside of GTO is -EV.

RNG is engrained in the game you can create RNG just by deciding for example that you are betting hearts and spades on turn with rainbow flow. And you cannot ban clocks or any other device, so as long as seed remains hidden you can base randomness out or anything.

Lastly stack sizes. I feel like there is no optimum, you can solve for any stack depth, and its not that hard to employ binning for example 0-50bb/50-100bb/100-150bb.... you can have solution for all of those, the problem is human player can't do better than computer and that's the breaking point since human cannot reach higher resolution than computer can.

Personally, I won't use RNG if it is not allowed. Despite my 10+ years reading here about cheaters and playing quite some live poker, I still believe there are good people playing this game. From time to time a cheater is outed/banned like right now and it is at least a little scary for other potential cheater (wishful thinking).

Technically, it is really tough to enforce RNG ban. Tough on your PC, and even harder with external devices. Randomizing with suits - I'm not sure if you get the results that can pass any randomness tests?

Ok lets say - we have many known solved spots preflop with mix 50% - call; 50% 3bet. It is easy for room to have a big sample on you as this spot is very often. You play over 100/200/500k hands with RNG and you converge to distribution 50/50. Human without assistance probably cannot reproduce this result, when poker room invites you to play at their HQ. (Alternating raise/call/raise/call... wont work as this kind of tricks also don't give the right statistics for independent events with 50% probability).

In future I wouldn't exclude the possibility that we have to use some piece of technology during play isolating us from other sources/tools/assistance and we can play pure poker in some isolating/deprivation capsule (sci-fi scenario) or at least with some VR helmet on?

Bro we really appreciate any kind of ideas and input, but talking about banning the use of a rng is just a waste of time... How could using rng ever be banned? Doesn't make any sense. U can just have one on your phone tablet on the wall whatever. And it's not and can never be against tos to use one.....

I mean it's such a redundant discussion. Especially your 50/50 example. U literally are given basically a rng with the poker software. If u don't have a rng u can just use your hole cards as an rng.

The deck beeing 52 card, so let's say you order colors c d s h in your head and A = 1 2= 2... K = 13, your first card is a Jc so ure less then 50%, if it's a 5 of spades you're upper 50% etc and so on.

They give u a rng. How can they prohibit u from using it

Webcams it is. Wouldn't mind if that someone becomes mendatory, at least in some games

Question is what is the sreen capture or sraping from on screen?

Sure, you are right - I know it is pretty silly idea but still worth some considerations. What you said above soon gonna be also applicable to real-time access to pio solutions - you can have it on the wall, in your watch, on your phone tablet...

Your above approach with cards is not a good-proper RNG, you know it right? There will be at least some small errors. But is it enough to significantly move player away from the equilibrium? - idk. Maybe this idea, even if possible to execute properly, is totally not worth.

Still, I don't want to defend it at all cost so im not pushing it further. Just wanted to give some interesting input and stimulate discussion.

To sum it up on a positive note - my favorite option is to make a new version of poker game which is too complex for current computations. It's job for some smart math/game theory specialists to design it. It is relatively easy to estimate the progress in technology, so we can predict what is safe for next lets say 50 years, before new solvers.

Yeah New game or holdem in a little different version. Maybe make 200-300bb min bi but lower the stakes. Like nl200 becoming nl70 but with straddle and ante or smt which is harder to solve. In general this would only help for a certain amount of time, caus the cheaters will adapt and just keep solving and solving.

How is my example not a proper apporach to rng? U talk abt banning the use of an rng, iam telling u its literally impossible, caus with every hand u get dealt, you almost get the perfect rng, because the holdem deck is 52 cards, indireclty almost perfectly representating a number between 1-100%. U can cover all kind of rng freq with the 52 cards approach. Its not like that in gto u need exact 5% freq or 13% of smt. Most of the time it will be enough to use the next biggest even number or smt like that.

If u need 10% freq of an action, you just check if ur first card is in the first 6 hands, smt less denn 25% freq, check in the first 13 cards and so on for all %, so yeah rng will always be available caus the sites literally give u one.

And also and rng from the sites is literally always "better" then a random rng in excel or so. caus these are not true rngs. Sites as stars, supposedly apply a very close to "real" rng. If they didnt change their approach, used to be like this years ago, they literally take thousdans of different kinds of data (like weater data eg) and generate a random number from this very naturally random data.

Here i was bored and too much free time l0l. Your personal rng. U just have to remeber the order s d c h. Yeah ofc its more complicated than just a software tool, but its also not that hard to learn this. You dont even have to memorize, using logic is enough.

You have "unbalanced" suits. Probably, to balance this you need either another rng or you prone to human error(?)

Sometimes you need more random numbers on one street. What then?

You need a new random number on each street. Previous cards influence the new results of rng, which is not that obvious task how to quickly correct this issue.

Action of your villain can correlate with the result of your rng. On flushy board if you bet and see the raise, opponent is more likely to have suits or nut flush blocker, which change probabilities/results of your rng.

Probably there is more examples. Does it really matter enough - I don't know and I don't want to spend a lot of time on solving this problem. But in past there were people that didn't "believed" in blockers and know tons of players know how important they are.


Stars has literally true rng as long as we trust the physics, as they generate the numbers based on some quantum optical system

I mean you can use RNG of previous hand to determine RNG on next one maybe even do it across tables. Since 2 poker hands are uncorrelated and if the system is unknown to players on your table you are pretty much safe. More random numbers go back more hands. The point being it doesn't matter from where you get your RNG, access to it is so trivial banning it would be futile.

The only 100% solution is to make online poker closer to live poker.

One option is to create gaming rooms which provide hardware and security for the poker game. This solution adds extra cost for poker sites and completely ****s over unlicensed ones.

Another option is to distribute something like 'poker slots' all over maybe even just add online poker as a game in existing ones. This should be cheaper but also doesn't allow unregulated poker sites to operate.

Last option I can come up with is for online poker sites to provide hardware like tablets etc. and only allow play through these devices so OCR becomes nearly impossible since you cannot capture the screen in a reliable way, and use device own camera for verification but keep this info on device.

These are the hardware solution i can come up with.

There are some software ones like segregating the player pool into tiers to protect the ecosystem somewhat, changing the format, detecting RTA and requiring biggest earners to provide some kind of proof.

let's say the online sites had all the available solves and monitored the players play. couldn't they flag a player when their play becomes to perfect?

As humans, we have a certain degree of error in our decision making. Sites could flag people who are too perfect to be human.

The sites wouldn't' let us know what this degree of error to be human is so these terrorists don't have delta to shoot for and play slightly worse than the standard.

For example, let's say a site bans people who play 100% GTO. As a cheater I'd just make myself play 95% GT[O to go under the radar.

However, sites could see that this player playing consistently 95% of GTO than ban them too. Or at least institute some measures that limit this cheaters ability to cheat (playing over webcam etc.).

If someone is playing 95% GTO on skill alone they should have no problem doing whatever measures the site requests because they are making bank anyway. And if the player gets pissed and doesn't play their site, who cares as that player is not good for the games anyway.

Also, create a blacklist like the casinos and share cheaters info across all sites.

I haven't read the past several pages, but did anyone come up with a reason why they can't just require all winning regs to have a 360 webcam attached to the top of their monitor?


The servers wouldn't need to save too much footage before it wipes and restarts, similar to a dashcam. Someone would only check a piece of footage if there were a number of reports, if they were flagged by some kind of gto AI. Or maybe just randomly for the medium/bigger winners playing decent volume at midstakes+

Under this guidelines no rec would ever be burdened by the requirement, most regs wouldn't either. I think the most annoying part is just setting up the servers on the poker sites side.

If this is too much of an invasion of your privacy then you can just play somewhere else

There are so many ways a person can receive information and not all are visual (for example headphones, haptics etc.) and also the information may be encoded in some way (auto generated YouTube video, picture, song etc. ) if the software isn't widespread enough you can get away with all sort of stuff. And also I feel like this would be even more counter productive since you would clear guilty players.

I actually like that idea. Keep track of performance and ban regs who win too much, too soon and too consistently. Any efforts to work around it will result in a lower and slower payout from cheating. At least that's an improvement.

Theer is big difference. Winning isn't a thing. You can win lots of money just by making bad moves. But you will get ban even losing when your game is gto
Sportbettors won't get limited by winning big, but hitting "soft lines"

Still i think GTO couldnt be killer in low/meid stakes.
For example Lets open with MP 30BB deep, BB has lots of 3b GTO ranges 77+,K5,A5s,JTs,K9s
But in real life people are 3 betting QQ+,AK+...
And you do not have "adjusted" PIO ranges to the nits...

haha, right. Am I allowed to look at the last 2 digits of the hand number?

Ok sure. but this raises the entrance level to cheating by like 1000x %, you cant just buy some random rta off a russian website. I didnt necessarily say it would 100% prevent cheating, but would reduce it greatly.

If the ppl making the rta at least were more afraid they would only give it to a few ppl with the highest ev, not sell basic version that imo hurt fish way more since more low level regs have access.

Cheating at 10k isnt going to kill poker, large scale cheating at micro - mid is what would do it


EDIT- also i mean the pokersites could also just buy these publicly available ones, find something unique about it that is detectable, but that would require some effort on their part.

I agree on the accessibility part, but that won't last for long once couple of guys get caught and the methods of detection becomes known.

But GTO won't kill low and mid stakes the profit with rake is abysmal and exploitative play gives more EV. Creating solutions to exploit micro stakes is in my opinion unprofitable with out some sort of automation, so i think we are safe there. Rake back schemes like pokerstars chests, GG rake back scheme or high hand jackpots like global are far more dangerous to the ecosystem sure it makes fish play longer so they rake more, but that's not what poker should be about.
I feel like there should be more of incentive for good players to move up the stakes and not to keep skinning the fish to absolute bone.

Also agree with the edit the public ones are not the problem there can be some counter measures devised against them. The ease with which you can create custom one is.

Sure but i feel like we've come back around to the webcam solution. Yes there will be ways to get around them, but like the head phone idea you have ect or fudging the feeds, this is now much much harder to do and in some cases requires multiple people.

I feel like the pokersite seeing your surroundings would eliminated 99.99% of cheating. If your footage came under review there are ways to tell if you're messing with the feed anyway, only way i see around it is the ear piece idea but id say of all the ppl cheating now less than 1% of them would be able to resort to something like that.

at vast majority of games that run cheaters won't have highest EV. The best regs are always gonna outperform people who cheat, since their winrate is gonna be higher vs players who don't cheat.

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requiring webcam is obviously a legit solution. Sure you can probably get around, but it's gonna be an insane pita I imagine.

But honestly, for now, I dont think that state of the games suggests that cheating is nearly rampant enough to justify such a radical move. That could change.

There are other solutions, I assume that finding a player who plays too close to gto can't be hard, people make mistakes. You filter the DB of the player, figure out which sizings he employs, run the pio sim with those sizings and look for discrepancies. Some discrepancies are bound to occur. If he plays too well, require webcam footage for a month+.

Stopping multi table nits??? EVEN BETTER!

Random antes/blinds every hand/making other adjustments to formats is the way to id it with minimal resources from sites needed to implement.