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Old 07-20-2013, 10:13 AM   #26
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregorio View Post
Hi Jamie, just wondering how much you pay the copyright holders in order to be allowed to offer their videos on your Pokertube site?
Hi Gregario,

Great question, although I'm not sure how relevant it is to this thread.

It varies - PokerNews, Matchbook, SkyPoker and many others simply upload the content themselves whereas other content is uploaded by members.

In the case of Pokerstars & Full Tilt, we upload content on their behalf, with their permission. The same goes for Betfair, Genting, Paddy, William Hill and many many others.

We also create our own content (livestream recordings, vlogs, poker coaching etc) and have paid significant sums for events such as the Irish Open to be livestreamed exclusively on PokerTube.

Our model is relatively similar to YouTube's, so you can probably learn quite a lot from looking at their model.

Whilst in general the operators are extremely supportive of PokerTube, we are more than happy to remove content at the request of the copyright holder and typically do so within 24 hours.

If you have any further questions regarding PokerTube please feel free to email Hello@PokerTube.Com and one of our support team will do their best to answer it.
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:21 AM   #27
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

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Originally Posted by PokerVIP View Post
as far as I know, our company has never once provoked or attacked Mr Mehaffey.
As far as I know, Enron never once provoked or attacked the New York Times. If only journalists would wait until they were attacked or provoked before exposing their subjects' misdeeds, the world would be a better place.
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:40 AM   #28
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

Found this to be an interesting read about Jamie's/pokerVIP's business practices: http://www.pokeraffiliatelistings.co...transfers.html

Hopefully the word keeps spreading.

Keep fighting the good fight, pokeraddict.
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Old 07-20-2013, 11:06 AM   #29
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

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Originally Posted by PokerVIP View Post
Hi Gregario,

Great question, although I'm not sure how relevant it is to this thread.

It varies - PokerNews, Matchbook, SkyPoker and many others simply upload the content themselves whereas other content is uploaded by members.

In the case of Pokerstars & Full Tilt, we upload content on their behalf, with their permission. The same goes for Betfair, Genting, Paddy, William Hill and many many others.

We also create our own content (livestream recordings, vlogs, poker coaching etc) and have paid significant sums for events such as the Irish Open to be livestreamed exclusively on PokerTube.

Our model is relatively similar to YouTube's, so you can probably learn quite a lot from looking at their model.

Whilst in general the operators are extremely supportive of PokerTube, we are more than happy to remove content at the request of the copyright holder and typically do so within 24 hours.

If you have any further questions regarding PokerTube please feel free to email Hello@PokerTube.Com and one of our support team will do their best to answer it.
Do you have permission from Comcast (Poker After Dark), ESPN (WSOP) and GSN (High Stakes Poker)?
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Old 07-20-2013, 11:26 AM   #30
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

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Originally Posted by PokerVIP View Post
Our business is not perfect and Mr Mehaffey is correct that on occasion one specific writer on PokerUpdate cut up content from other news sites. However, Mr Mehaffey himself has even accepted that this was not technically plagiarism
Then you are both wrong, including another authors work without attribution is the very definition of plagiarism (technical or otherwise.)
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:46 PM   #31
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

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Originally Posted by sba9630 View Post
Do you have permission from Comcast (Poker After Dark), ESPN (WSOP) and GSN (High Stakes Poker)?
If the WSOP occasionally takes down videos on Youtube for copyright infringment, why would they allow Pokertube to host their content?

Will post the response from a Caesars lawyer as soon I get it.
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:56 PM   #32
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The lack of a period in Mr. is tilting the hell out of me.
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:56 PM   #33
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

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Originally Posted by PokerVIP View Post
Unfortunately, he has neglected to share the full content of the letter.
Please post the full content of the letter.

Last edited by Hood; 07-20-2013 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 07-20-2013, 02:11 PM   #34
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

May the truth prevail.
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Old 07-20-2013, 02:51 PM   #35
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by sthief09 View Post
Found this to be an interesting read about Jamie's/pokerVIP's business practices: http://www.pokeraffiliatelistings.co...transfers.html

Hopefully the word keeps spreading.

Keep fighting the good fight, pokeraddict.
Very revealing.
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Old 07-20-2013, 03:25 PM   #36
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by sthief09 View Post
Found this to be an interesting read about Jamie's/pokerVIP's business practices: http://www.pokeraffiliatelistings.co...transfers.html

Hopefully the word keeps spreading.

Keep fighting the good fight, pokeraddict.
I could tell you from first hand experience what a scumbag Jamie Nevin is. I don't understand how he was allowed to have an affiliate forum after he was perma banned from multiple previous accounts.

OP Jamie has zero intention of taking any legit legal action as he knows it will only shine more light on all of the ridic shady things he's been involved with in the past. Along with offering VPN services and trying to bribe other affiliate company employees for mailing lists nothing would surprise me him.
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Old 07-20-2013, 03:27 PM   #37
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

If Jamie wishes to have the full content of the letter posted in this forum he may do so. He has my 100% permission. The case law in me doing so on a website I am not a partner in is iffy. By the way it is important for everyone to know that some of Jamie's allegations occurred here at Two Plus Two in the forum that I moderate. You will see more details of that here.

Here are the highlights:

The lawyer that sent the letter failed to source anything. There are no links, domains, dates - absolutely nothing to help me locate some of their quotes. Some were hard to find because they removed portions of my quotes, which gave them a completely different meaning.

1. The first point they made is that my articles have encouraged players not to use Pokervip as an affiliate. Their quote came from an article I published about PokerUpdate making false statements about a competitor. Pokerupdate.com made edits to their article after three news sites published stories about it. Here is the quote:

Quote:
“[PokerVIP] is also in violation of the terms and conditions of many or most affiliate programs. These T&Cs are clear that affiliates cannot attack other affiliates…”
The above quote goes on but since they chopped it up it is pointless because the meaning of it was changed anyway. The long part I cropped goes on to say that affiliates that break T&Cs risk losing their affiliate accounts.

First, their quote is not what I said and they removed important parts of it, which gave it a different meaning. Second, it seems they are trying to assert that affiliate programs do not ever have T&Cs about publishing false statements about competitors or maybe that affiliates cannot be removed for breaking T&Cs. Regardless their point was not clear and the quote was altered.

2. This one states that I have accused Pokervip of illegal activities. I do not know what they are talking about since they failed to produce a source or link. I suppose it has something to so with the accusation in point 3.

3. Pokervip alleges that I said this in the Affiliate/Rakeback forum here at Two Plus Two where I am moderator and he is a sponsor:

Quote:
Obviously the entire industry is awaiting his proof he has yet to provide although he has been asked countless times. ... Instead countless ones are saying it isn't legal.
What I actually said was this:

Quote:
Obviously the entire industry is awaiting his proof he has yet to provide although he has been asked countless times. Not one person that I know to be an affiliate has come to say "Yes this is legal, why isn't everyone doing it?" Instead countless ones are saying it isn't legal. So the entire industry is wrong and you are right?
Surely as a moderator of a forum at Two Plus Two I may rightfully ask questions without the fear of having their meanings being altered in a threatening letter from a lawyer. The entire definition of my post has changed now and must have created the misunderstanding in point #2.

4. "You falsely state that the network suspects that PokerVIP facilitates traffic from banned territories."

I covered this in my OP but the above is word for word of #4 in the C&D. The email sent by iPoker to its skins clearly contradicts that.

Quote:
This is a formal letter of notice to take immediate effect:

In order to confirm that Poker accounts are not coming from any banned territory the following must be adhered to by all iPoker.Com Card rooms:

1. All iPokerVIP (affiliate) account KYC verification must be completed and communicated to iPoker as requested.

2. By end of Monday 20th 2013, any account that has not been confirmed will get frozen by iPoker security teams.
5. I cannot find their quote in Bing, Google, Two Plus Two or Yahoo. I even broke it up into sections. Again, they failed to include any links, sources or dates.

6. Goes back to #4 and claims that I misunderstood what the KYC letter and other evidence I gathered meant. He goes on to claim that I must have known other affiliates that were under investigation as well. Again, I think the email from iPoker's enforcement team clears up this statement.

He then goes on to state (this was bolded in the C&D):

Quote:
these are just a few of the many examples
Common sense would dictate that they picked their favorite ones in their top 6 countdown. Five were easily shot down above and the other quote is nowhere to be found in any search engine or in this forum.

The rest of the C&D rants about how my articles have damaged his business reputation etc. He claims that I publish false information in an attempt to destroy him. I can easily prove his accusations to be false. Since I can, the truth is the ultimate defense. Nothing else matters. The effects of a public discussion or publication about the truth is irrelevant in a defamation case.

He also alleges several private discussions in his C&D. Defamation cannot be claimed on private communications.

I also find it interesting that an article that even PokerVIP admits was truthful caused him to send the C&D.

By the way PokerVIP - consider that to be my response to your attorney. This way I do not have to waste $5 on certified mail.

Last edited by Pokeraddict; 07-20-2013 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 07-20-2013, 03:28 PM   #38
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

Wait, so why are you guys so pissed he was offering vpn services? That almost seems like a robin-hood type thing to do in this climate of online poker.. I mean, considering all the other scams that have gone down, the player (even one trying to vpn) is almost always getting screwed and is the innocent party- and is just the honest person trying to make a living. Remember, these poker rooms are allowing BOTS. Why are all your panties in a bunch over this?
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Old 07-20-2013, 04:27 PM   #39
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtf_cc? View Post
Wait, so why are you guys so pissed he was offering vpn services? That almost seems like a robin-hood type thing to do in this climate of online poker.. I mean, considering all the other scams that have gone down, the player (even one trying to vpn) is almost always getting screwed and is the innocent party- and is just the honest person trying to make a living. Remember, these poker rooms are allowing BOTS. Why are all your panties in a bunch over this?
Hi Nev.
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Old 07-20-2013, 04:53 PM   #40
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

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Originally Posted by wtf_cc? View Post
Wait, so why are you guys so pissed he was offering vpn services? That almost seems like a robin-hood type thing to do in this climate of online poker.. I mean, considering all the other scams that have gone down, the player (even one trying to vpn) is almost always getting screwed and is the innocent party- and is just the honest person trying to make a living. Remember, these poker rooms are allowing BOTS. Why are all your panties in a bunch over this?
1) Two wrongs don't make a right.
2) None of the above quotes show that anyone was pissed about it, just that they reported that it was happening and the potential results if one participated.
3) The law doesn't have a "but they were wrong first" clause.
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Old 07-20-2013, 05:26 PM   #41
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

I didn't follow closely the whole discussion but I don't get the point of this thread.

The PokerVIP made some allegation when it goes to your person. If their attorney failed to make it 1/2 reasonable (which he obviously did) Jamie or someone else should post here what they accuse you off (or send you an email about).

Then we have a clear case cause either they right or not and you can easily back up your claims.

They are advertising here on 2+2 where you are a moderator and honesty it is unprofessional on your side too cause at some level you do represent 2+2.

I mean it is very simple case so both you and Jamie/PokerVip can make it simple and behave like adults and making threads on NVG and throwing dirts on one another is nowhere near reasonable level. I mean if I were PokerVip it would be the last time I would advertise on a site that do allow to post stuff like that their representatives (cause yeah moderators do represent 2+2)

Checked the pokeraffiliatelistenings thread too and you made some serious acusations about PokerVIP so if I were you I would take care of having data to back up your accusation cause if not then they have clearly a case because you tarnished thier reputation heavily.

It is really that simple so what is the point of the whole trolling (especially given that they are advertiser here so it shouldn't be welcomed by 2+2)
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Old 07-20-2013, 05:39 PM   #42
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

Quote:
I didn't follow closely the whole discussion but I don't get the point of this thread.
It became 2+2's business when PokerVIP included posts I made in my function as a moderator in the forum that he sponsors at 2+2 in the C&D. It especially became an issue when they misquoted me and used them in a way to threaten legal action against me. A decent portion of the C&D (I estimate 25-35%, it appears to be 2 or 3 of the 6 bullet points) pertains to my duties as a moderator and my account here at 2+2. Had they not involved 2+2 I would not have started this thread here.
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Old 07-20-2013, 05:55 PM   #43
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokeraddict View Post
It became 2+2's business when PokerVIP included posts I made in my function as a moderator in the forum that he sponsors at 2+2 in the C&D. It especially became an issue when they misquoted me and used them in a way to threaten legal action against me. A decent portion of the C&D (I estimate 25-35%, it appears to be 2 or 3 of the 6 bullet points) pertains to my duties as a moderator and my account here at 2+2. Had they not involved 2+2 I would not have started this thread here.
If it was true you wouldn't write this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokeraddict View Post
I will be filing a response to these absurd allegations but wanted the community to know how this company handles truthful statements made about them.
So it has nothing to do with your work here as a mod but solely because you want to make it public on 2+2 (with the intention to "prove how shaddy they are" ) where they are very big advertiser.
Sorry but your story doesn't add up.

There is clear difference between "I made a post due to the allegations being connected with my 2+2 involvement" (tho there aren't any allegations against 2+2) and making huge claims on a forum whey they advertise heavily and pay for it just because it is good way to hurt the business of guys you don't like.

It is very unprofessional on your side (and again if your allegation are true I do hope you to back up it with data and hopefully we will have another huge thread about their shaddy practises).
However for now this thread is beyond ridiculous.

you are all adults keep it reasonable and professional if you can't , stop being a mod here because it is ridiculously unprofessional

Last edited by gargamel_fk; 07-20-2013 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:02 PM   #44
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by gargamel_fk View Post
If it was true you wouldn't write this:


So it has nothing to do with your work here as a mod but solely because you want to make it public on 2+2 (with the intention to "prove how shaddy they are" ) where they are very big advertiser.
Sorry but your story doesn't add up.

There is clear difference between "I made a post due to the allegations being connected with my 2+2 involvement" (tho there aren't any allegations against 2+2) and making huge claims on a forum whey they advertise heavily and pay for it just because it is good way to hurt the business of guys you don't like.

It is very unprofessional on your side (and again if your allegation are true I do hope you to back up it with data and hopefully we will have another huge thread about their shaddy practises).
However for now this thread is beyond ridiculous.

you are all adults keep it reasonable and professional if you can't , stop being a mod here because it is ridiculously unprofessional
The only thing about this thread that is beyond ridiculous is you.

Now that I think about it, talking about PokerVIP's shady practices would probably make a good segment for the Pokercast.
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:19 PM   #45
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokeraddict View Post
As I pointed out, a good portion of the C&D involves posts made here. It is certainly of interest to the community when an advertiser is threatening legal action against someone that post questions in their sponsored thread. You are entitled to have your opinion though.

2+2 has always had a policy that advertisers still have a code of conduct. Advertisers get some freedom to advertise their product but otherwise they are no different than anyone else. In fact, they are held to a higher level of scrutiny. You seem to feel that is not appropriate and again you are entitled to that opinion but that is not the policy, at least in A/R.
Of course and I do agree with you however I hate threads like that when there are only allegations and accusations.

The thing is that their attorney demands are really reasonable cause you do hurt their business and tarnished their reputation and as long as long as you haven't posted proof to your accusations and claims it is them who would win the case in the court.

So instead of letting the discusion going wild you can just post it instead of what we have now. I do understand the freedom of speach etc. but given how serious your accusations are you should just post the thread with it and proof to back it up cause again until now it is your behaviour that is highly questionable (FWIW I am a lawyer and was on my way to become a barister beofre turning into a poker pro so I have at least some clue how it works in real world).

The real discusion shouldn't be about some letter send by brain dead lawyer but about the serious accusations you made and the data to back it up cause thats the core issue and what the case is built around. (basically the core issue is offfering shaddy services to Us players to play on Ipoker via VPN's right?? ) The other one is giving under the table rakeback and publishing false information about a competitor. (however when it goes to under the table deals Playtech doesn't seem to care about their "deals" so if Playtech doesn't think it is an issue I doubt we can say it is illegal under Ipoker T&C as long as Playtch doesn't think it is)

Cause until now I do believe that they have their point (of course only if your claims are false but we don't know whether they are true or not).

Last edited by gargamel_fk; 07-20-2013 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:25 PM   #46
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

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@ProfessionalPoker - The fact that all links to our news site have been removed from the forum seemingly based on Mr Mehaffey's opinion seems very unfair. This is not how moderation is meant to be done and nobody in a position of authority on 2+2 should behave like this, if they truly have the forum's best interests at heart. Please look at the site and read the articles. If you see anything wrong or that you do not think would benefit the poker community please let us know.

Jamie Nevin
Founder 180Vita ltd
;_;

Its a privately owned forum. Moderation is done however the people who own the forum want it done.
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:30 PM   #47
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

@ gargamel_fk

I deleted the post you quoted because I thought it was pointless to argue. Please go back and read post #37. I can prove everything that I have written and the articles have numerous links/sources and I keep numerous screenshots. There is no doubt my articles are the truth. There is no reason to argue further about it.
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:50 PM   #48
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

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Originally Posted by gargamel_fk View Post
The thing is that their attorney demands are really reasonable cause you do hurt their business and tarnished their reputation and as long as long as you haven't posted proof to your accusations and claims it is them who would win the case in the court.
Giving up law to play poker was a wise decision imo.
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Old 07-20-2013, 09:12 PM   #49
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

Unfortunately, this kind of scare tactics will continue until lawyers are held accountable for them and punished accordingly for abusing their powers.
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Old 07-20-2013, 09:14 PM   #50
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Re: I Received C&D Letter from Attorney of PokerVIP and Poker Update

As far as i know they have always payed, and on time. There are way shadier operators.
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