Where did I say alt?

Not what I said at all though is it.

Nvg is nutlow. I'm out. Gl

I'm sorry maybe perfect is the wrong word. What I mean is paint consistently made plays that were positive exploits against his opponent.

Before people get the wrong idea I have 0 problem using data to create a plan to take your opponents poker money. The issue is how you obtain said data

You called me out for bias for no reason, scumbag
Glad to see you go

Sure, I don’t think OP acted correctly here and he admits that, but should he have had to repay entire winnings? No, obviously no

You’ve just explained the difference in skill between two HU players.

Also just to add, nobody cares about your personal opinion as to whether the data acquisition was ethical or not. There were no rules here, so essentially anything that is legal is ok.

Really, if one party didn’t want the other party to use their HH from outside sources then they should’ve clarified that. Since they didn’t , that is that party’s failure, not the person being accused of scamming.

If you don’t set clear rules then you can’t be mad if your made up rules are not adhered to

Yeah that’s one way to look at it, too. If you don’t specify rules you can’t act, after the fact, that there was a mutually agreed upon ethical standard.

so if neither player said no RTA that means its ok to use RTA. Even the best player in the world isn't going to know how to exploit your game right from the start. Unless they already have data on you. Also don't most sites have strong rules against datamining or buying hand histories? Which is essentially what paint did. He just got them for free with the price of coaching. Anyway by your logic i should be able to challenge someone to a boxing match and spray pepper spray on my gloves and it would be their fault for not specifying that was against the rules

Ideally there would have been a list of rules including no RTA

You're taking arbiters at their word that Paint was exploiting Brandon based on on the HU hands from 2 years ago. I get that since Brandon lost a lot of money pretty quickly and the TP/Paint collaboration was discovered after the fact, its easy to have the results oriented reaction that Paint must have been owning Brandon based on those hands. The reality is way less clear. 2 years is an eon in online poker. Players can go into a match with exploitative plans based on population tendencies or other reasons.

They both datamined dude

Not a reasonable analogy at all. There is a lot of grey area and disagreement about what types of information gathering should be allowed in online poker, both live (HUDs) and after the fact (data mining). You may be right that sites have banned data mining but that doesn't mean it isn't widespread.
Anyway, I'm not gonna argue that Paint and TP's collaboration was ok. My position is just that the arbitration decision was extremely one sided and the amount of EV lost by Brandon to the unethical behavior was much less than the total winnings in the challenge.

That's prob my last post on this, can't take the time and have said everything I have to say

RTA is literally against the TOS of every site, why would they need to set a rule regarding this? Do they also need to set a rule that says you can't install software that shows the other's screen??

No. Paint got access to a 250k hand database of FACE UP hole cards through Pinnock. That isn't datamining. He got to see hole cards for hands that didn't go to showdown. It's incredibly different and I don't know why it is being ignored.

You’re not following the conversation Pedro
Other dude posed hypotheticals which I responded to
Please refer to my previous posts if you’re actually interested to understand my POV on this

not exactly someone could have been Brandon himself put out a video a while back showing how paint was exploiting Brandon.

you can tell right away how to exploit opponents if they are deviated from certain well known strategies. How much heads up have you played? I have about 2 full time years of it.

software installation would be illegal. It isnt datamining, its called doing your HW or your due diligence.

By data mining i mean obtaining data from hands you weren't involved in. Ie. using a screen scrapper or buying hand histories.

Oh yeah.

For the sake of discussion, Matt berkey, luckychewy and Nick howard have been discussing this situation on a recent s4y pod:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A8U-1a...9kY2FzdA%3D%3D

For the benefit of Paint's mental health I really hope in the meantime (ie since this thread) he has moved on from the whole situation.

Alternatively if he has or hasn't, a life update from him maybe would be interesting to the community ��

I understand. Is that against the sites TOS that they agreed to play on? Are you upset with this because you think it gave dude an edge?

Lucky chewy saying someone buying someone else’s hands is not fair. I disagree. It’s entirely fair as both parties had the ability to contact former associates and try to get information about the other player. Poker is a single person game, there are no teams. It is not unethical to get information from prior coaches unless the coach and student have a privacy agreement in place.


Also I love Nick Howard on this.


Legally Buying hand histories is not unethical. It’s a consensual transaction between two parties (B/C) that has to do with another transaction between two parties (A/B)

Berkey admits he has little to no online experience

Well its against most sites TOS. Something being a consensual transaction between two parties doesn't make it ethical if a 3rd party is being screwed.

Not sure how anyone could say it doesn't give an edge. The more info you have on a player the easier it is to construct a counter strategy

The irony.

TBC i have o problem with using data my issue is how you get that data

How is the third party being screwed? What legal expectation of privacy does the guy whose HHs got sold have? When you give your HHs to someone else to analyze, there is no expectation that that information is private/confidential/unsellable. Sure it’s rude but it’s not outrageous or anything that was expressly forbidden.

Sure but just because something is easier to do doesn’t mean people can properly execute. In fact the RTA users on ACR are mostly losing players.

If you send your data to a coach and you don’t have an agreement preventing them from sharing that information, you shouldn’t be incredibly upset when that information is sold and or used against you.

If anything, unless you’re paying more for that feature , I have no reason to assume it’s included.

Don't forget paint had a data analyst helping him devise strategies. Plus theirs a thing called spirit of competition. A Hu challenge should be your best versus their best. Not versus them and their pitcrew

The last sentence isnt true at all. In litterally every big hu match there are one or multiple people behind the scenes doing work. Think doug beside his coaches had other people taking frequencies for him in his match vs dnegs publicly in one of the upswing groups.