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How to vastly reduce the effects of rake and save a lot of time

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11-20-2017 , 03:49 AM

SageDonkey

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,743

Achieved by playing as a syndicate. Requires a level of trust with percentage of total bankroll moving around between the syndicate.

The idea is simple. E.g. 10 players currently rolled for multi tabling 50c/$1 NLHE 6 max/Zoom pool their bankrolls and on a rota basis take turns to do the same individually at $5/$10, or could split this into 2 players at $2.50/$5.

Also sharing strategy, coaching and hand reviews etc.

Effect of rake greatly reduced and players save a lot of time.

Downside: games most likely tougher higher up, however, can be compensated for by sharing coaching and strategy.

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11-20-2017 , 05:26 AM

Colin_Piddle

The Colonial

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 11,807

10 people going busto after they get destroyed by sharks at 5/10

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11-20-2017 , 08:00 AM

SrslySirius

Animated Character

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 4,357

Quote:

Originally Posted by SageDonkey

Downside: games most likely tougher higher up, however, can be compensated for by sharing coaching and strategy.

This is a great idea OP. You should join forces with 100 of the best minds at /r/poker and take down OtB_RedBaron

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11-20-2017 , 08:43 AM

SageDonkey

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin_Piddle

10 people going busto after they get destroyed by sharks at 5/10

I gave the bare-bones of the concept.

My assumptions: all 10 are small to medium winners at 50c/$1 with room for playing skill growth but held back by high rake and already grinding 40-60 hours/week.

I mentioned 2 x $2.50/$5. This could as easily be 5 x $1/$2 initially before the next syndicate move up.

The slightly better players could also take on a little more workload in playing, and the not as good players a little more workload in admin and co-ordinating team coaching etc.

At 50c/$1 the 10 are wasting valuable time and paying irrational levels of rake.

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11-20-2017 , 08:50 AM

SageDonkey

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by SrslySirius

This is a great idea OP. You should join forces with 100 of the best minds at /r/poker and take down OtB_RedBaron

Give my idea additional thought and you will see that it is in essence a fast track way of creating a poker stable. The only difference to the conventional stable method is that it's a far larger group of investors.

And yes in time when one or more of the syndicate members has reached the $25/$50 skill level then a small percentage of the total syndicate roll can be used for that. As the group grows, a variety of stakes will be being played.

This is a really simple and obvious idea that players could easily adopt and make successful.

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11-20-2017 , 08:57 AM

SageDonkey

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by theorangeone

So 90% of the time I can't play? The ****.

Correct, however, you are still making the same amount of money as before, but you are grinding say 15 hours per week instead of 50, (5 hours of play and 10 hours of team coaching and personal study)

You can use your free 35 hours to grind a separate micro roll into a roll big enough to play some $50c/$1 as an extra income source, then maybe join a second syndicate with it, or you could work a regular job for 35 hours, or do any kind of other activities that are positive or beneficial to you as a person.

Last edited by SageDonkey; 11-20-2017 at 09:06 AM.

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11-20-2017 , 09:13 AM

SageDonkey

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by theorangeone

How can you be making the same amount of money when the combined hours played divided by the amount of players is reduced. If 10 players all played 50 hours a week and now they each only play 15 hours that's a big loss, and if you can't play 90% of the time it's more like 5 hours. You have to assume that you gain a huge increase in edge to justify doing this.

And you can't join a second syndicate because you'd be competing with yourself if you stay at the same stakes. Also nobody wants to grind out a dumb micro roll.

If the BB per 100 hands win rate for 1 x $5/$10 or $2 x $2.50/$5 or 5 x $1/$2 is the same as at $0.5/$1 then you are making the same amount of money each.

15 hours because you can't just sit back. Yes play your A game for the 5 hours but other obligations are team and individual study, 10 hours total.

You can join a second syndicate or you could be a non playing member of the 2nd syndicate. Stables inevitably will have players spread across large player pools. Policy is to behave ethically with this.

Last edited by SageDonkey; 11-20-2017 at 09:19 AM.

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11-20-2017 , 09:28 AM

SageDonkey

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by theorangeone

So why would it not be better for myself to get some coaching and move up on my own dime if I am actually capable of playing $500NL/$1000NL? Why would the strongest player be willing to help 9 others move up to higher stakes when he could just do it on his own?

Yes, playing on a schedule with all the regs increases everyone's winrate but there is no fair way to do that. Also it's a 100% lock that at some point someone is going to run off with a big part of the bankroll.

You have to pay for coaching. By yourself you don't have the bankroll/run bad insulation that you get from a syndicate. A syndicate provides free ongoing coaching and support.

There are methods of mitigating syndicate members being dishonest, such as written contracts, charging a small insurance premium that goes into a syndicate indemnity fund, and offering players long term incentives to stay honest.

Sure there are kinks to iron out and improve in any new concept, but the general system of pooling bankrolls to share playing time at higher stakes saves rake and time and ultimately speeds up general progress.

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11-20-2017 , 12:40 PM

PTLou

JellyBean

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 5,516

Quote:

Originally Posted by SageDonkey

You have to pay for coaching. By yourself you don't have the bankroll/run bad insulation that you get from a syndicate. A syndicate provides free ongoing coaching and support.
.

Sage is on to something folks.

If I decided I wanted quickly work my way up in stakes, spending the least amount of time and money, and since education is a big part of that, his idea makes alot of sense, best part being a collaborative learning environment for members.

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11-20-2017 , 12:51 PM

#10

SageDonkey

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTLou

Thank you Lou for supporting the concept.

It amounts to a group of players forming their own equal share stable.

The key differences are that a regular stable sometimes charge an entry fee and always charge a commission on profits. They are probably more controlling too and a little less friendly than a co-operative, because there is a boss and horse hierarchy.

An established stable will likely already have higher quality coaches in place and more instantly bigger bank rolls available to play with, however, both of these attributes can have the gap closed by a co-operative through steady progress.

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11-20-2017 , 01:51 PM

#11

TreadLightly

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 3,709

who wants to give me their bankroll so i can hop in 25/50 pool

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11-20-2017 , 02:23 PM

#12

SageDonkey

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreadLightly

who wants to give me their bankroll so i can hop in 25/50 pool

Five $5/$10 players or ~three $10/$25 players if you're all happy you're collectively capable of beating $25/$50 on a shared playing hours arrangement.

Admittedly, there's a sweet-spot in cash games and MTTs beyond which edges become too thin or games don't run often enough, but lower stakes grinders who are profitable but having to grind long hours and pay atrocious levels of rake would/could benefit from pooling both monetary and knowledge resources.

Many low stakes grinders may already be making~66% of their roll in profit each month
(e.g. $3.3K with a $5K roll) but it's spent on monthly living costs.

Last edited by SageDonkey; 11-20-2017 at 02:32 PM.

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11-20-2017 , 02:32 PM

#13

SamSneade

centurion

Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 130

Quote:

Originally Posted by SrslySirius

This is a great idea OP. You should join forces with 100 of the best minds at /r/poker and take down OtB_RedBaron

Legit lol'ed.

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11-20-2017 , 10:44 PM

#14

golfbum983

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 1,943

So I need to trust 9 other poker players with my bankroll ? Hmm seems like good idea

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11-21-2017 , 01:25 AM

#15

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,093

Socialism for poker

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11-21-2017 , 01:31 AM

#16

SageDonkey

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfbum983

So I need to trust 9 other poker players with my bankroll ? Hmm seems like good idea

It's 20% of your bankroll because the baton gets passed around often.

10 players who buy in 100 BBs deep at 50c/$1 and have 50 buy ins have $5K each, so $50K in total.

The player whose turn it is to play a 5 hour session 2 tabling $5/$10 100 BBs deep can do so with a bankroll of $14K, so the other 9 players only need to transfer $1000 each to him/her.

You never give one player the whole $50K because they don't need it and 14 buy ins should be a natural session stop loss anyway.

Last edited by SageDonkey; 11-21-2017 at 02:00 AM.

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11-21-2017 , 01:40 AM

#17

SageDonkey

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brokenstars

Socialism for poker

It isn't socialism because pro-poker is a parasitical pursuit of wealth with no end product or exchange of goods, and many other players (citizens) will have to lose, and lose badly, for the syndicate to make a decent profit.

What it does is prevents the house from churning rake as frequently and at such high rates and frees up the members of the syndicate to increase their overall $ x hours volume because they can grind micro/small stakes with some of their profits in the spare time that's now been created, or do some regular paid work in that time.

Last edited by SageDonkey; 11-21-2017 at 01:47 AM.

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11-21-2017 , 02:12 AM

#18

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,093

I meant socialism for that group.

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11-21-2017 , 02:14 AM

#19

MikkeD

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,498

SageDonkey making threads to go in full troll mode!

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11-21-2017 , 02:18 AM

#20

SageDonkey

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brokenstars

I meant socialism for that group.

Ah yes I guess so.

Grinders of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!

You give a poor man a small bank roll and you feed him for a day. You teach him how to pool his bank roll and you give him an occupation that will feed him for a lifetime.

The first requisite of the happiness of the people is the abolition of high rake.

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11-21-2017 , 05:24 AM

#21

ty4thDime$

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 556

Sage, it's a great idea.

But it won't work, just like communism.

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11-21-2017 , 05:35 AM

#22

Penetrator

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 298

Why not one thousand microgrinders fighting Isildur for six figures?

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11-21-2017 , 01:36 PM

#23

robert_utk

Not From the UK

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,822

It could work. But would require specific contract terms. First is the duration of the Syndicate. It must contain all members at the beginning and no one can buy out until the end of the contract period when everyone gets an equal share of the pool.

Otherwise, variance winners will be second guessing variance losers and want to buy out after a statistical upswing, which will kill the pool.

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11-21-2017 , 01:52 PM

#24

SageDonkey

banned

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert_utk

Yes, carefully crafted contracts but I'd expect players would't want out too often because they'd see the big potential of long term growth.

Remember the better performing syndicate members are only winning the averaged out playing profits of all 10 members and if they leave are basically back to their original 50c/$1 bank roll.

The long game is to play bigger and bigger and to end up also being invested in more and more pieces of winning players in the syndicate.

It would need a lot of setting up at first for sure and some non-playing staff as it grows.

Last edited by SageDonkey; 11-21-2017 at 01:58 PM.