Yes, either that or just move the information on the table window and display it a little differently. Perhaps it could be done in a way that doesn't distract players too much but still thwarts the scraping.

That's a temporary fix at best. Think of how advanced Captchas have become. If you obfuscate the cards so much that screen readers don't recognize them there will be legitimate players who also don't recognize them.

Unfortunately there's also another problem with this, bot makers could theoretically start to make bots essentially just good enough to win. So they wouldn't be obscene crushers that play perfectly, but be about the same or even a little worse than a usual winner. (maybe this is already happening?)

guys, there was a company advertising for a short period of time right here on 2+2 that did exactly what we need. I think they even hired some 2+2ers to help with the company.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...?highlight=bot

imo every single site with a long term market outlook should either be working extremely closely with this company, a company very similar, or an internal team that's competent in doing exactly what safe poker was/is striving to accomplish. there is just no excuse for sites not to**

**sites that don't have a long term market outlook obv won't care because we as a customer base don't demand it.

Yes, but it's probably always going to be the case that you're only temporarily ahead of them if they're that determined. Sort of like how radar avoiding technologies always have to be improved because the radars are improved, and vice versa. There likely won't be a permanent solution.

Taking a step like this would likely make it difficult for them to overcome for a while. They would have to start employing some advanced graphics recognition and AI to combat this, and as is seen in the video, they are already complaining that they are barely getting the advice before the time bank runs down. It takes time to do all that ACR and query their servers for the matching simulation result. Adding this layer of complexity would make it hard to overcome for quite a while.

This brings up another way the sites could combat this. Look for users who are constantly using a lot of their allotted time, and perhaps reduce the allowed time to act.

what would happen if both of the players used a bot?

No bots play perfect GTO, so the better bot would win in the long run, or they'd be so close that they'd both lose to the rake in the long run.

Yes, but it all starts with the site giving a ****.

For example, on iPoker there are usually around 2 big software updates per year. Every time after these big updates, the accounts that everyone suspects are bots, mysteriously disappear from the lobby until they get patched in less than a few days. If anyone at iPoker cared, these accounts would be banned many years ago...

On the other hand, about what you are saying specifically, nowadays big gaming companies prefer to invest in AI machine learning with long term effect to police their products, rather than deploy temporary fixes or have manual reviewing.

They talked about this in the video (chat portion). The xrab/dr3mka guys vs the bali group, and the programmer guy was saying how their bot was getting like 5cev or so over theirs, but that the bali guys had bigger bankrolls and they didn't want to battle for too long.

You'd both lose to rake even if you had semi competent opponents. The bot would probably lose a bit less, but it would not be worthwhile in the long run. They would all switch to their regular play vs. fish (that's where the profits come in) and just use the bot for battling other regs/bots across many tables. This was just an investment phase of sorts so that they would be able to hold lobbies to actually play the fish.

But for someone new, how are you ever going to have a chance to play if as soon as you sit down a bunch of the bots would play you, with shared bankrolls and drive you out unless you were willing to stick around for thousands of games and willing to lose a lot of rake in the process.

They would have time periods and they would go and play 5+ tables without getting tired for hours on end etc. And if one quit, another one from that same group would take its place. Very hard for any single human to compete with unless you were extremely good and committed.


iPoker has had a bot problem for soooooo long. I remember even in 2009-2010 or so when I would sometimes play hu FLH for fun during regular grinds it was only bots there. Don't even know if they kept that format up, but the botting was rampant and everyone knew. I think in the end some accounts did get banned but that was after several years of botting. Of course that wasn't ever much of a popular format either though.

Had to take a break after all the Postle videos and now I see this.


This type of activity has been discussed for years now for cash games (dream machines) and obviously exists in some form for that format - haven't paid much attention to the SNG world but not surprised to see this type of system in place.

I really don't understand how the sites can't put a stop to these type of things once they find out about it - if a guy is playing all the time, most stakes, many tables and other say he is cheating. They are never going to catch the ones doing it who use a different strategy to avoid detection in play style alteration.

What exactly is the disincentive for players to do this and how can the same accounts operate for so long - at least make them change their accounts and programs up? Is there not software poker sites can use to detect a system like this??

Do I need to start a anti-bot/software company?

How long did it take Stars, the biggest site, to actually do something about bots? Until tons of players said something. Sadly these sites don't seem to give a **** anymore. You can tell them their is cheating and the sites are to busy trying to tread water.



At this point you have to just accept ghetto online sites. As long as the US and many other countries prohibits online poker they are all ghetto as **** from what history tells us. It's time to hit lawmakers in the head with a baseball bat imo.



edit: to the NSA, not literally you dumb ****s

well, cant we collectively sign a petition to prosecute them or something like that? (pretty sure the answer is no). This is no different than stealing, fraud etc. - for which you can go to jail. It's really sad that there isn't a proper mechanism put in place to be able to bring the punishment these f&ckers truly deserve.

The US govt has locked up 17 year olds for 30 years over the fact they were poor and into the drug business. You think they give a **** about gamblers? No one ****ing cares unless it makes them money....

Why is this industry even regulated with gaming commissions if the public do not have the means to raise issues such as this?

Governments that issue these licences should have an obligation to enforce fair gaming.

Can someone explain to me what the talk about wars mean?

I don't understand any of the posts about this being illegal. It's obviously against terms of service, but I don't see how following realtime advice would be illegal. Is following a preflop chart then also illegal? Maybe they could get them for using false identities/documents if they were creating other accounts in other peoples names after getting banned.

Wars is a fight with another group for the lobbies on the sites. They are playing eachother for tens of thousands of games preparing to lose money to rake just so that the other side will let them have the lobby.

Its all lip service. No one gives a s÷*t.

I noticed at 7:22 mark of the video, there is a name of Glenn Thompson, I found this Hendon Mob, I am not sure if it is related. ]

I didn't want to post it on the thread first as it seems like that is the nickname of the whistleblower and he accidentally left it there. I was afraid he might remove the video if I mention this.

This is way worse than Mike Postle in my opinion. On my larger scales, way better methods, involving more people, more money, ..

Anyway, another good reason no to play online

U don't have to start a bot detection company. Raising awareness and bringing it to the public, like the postle thing, would be enough )

Lol(s)

All this Sucks

What about applying the same or similar technology or methods to other formats and stack sizes like 6-max/full-ring cash, Satellites, 6m/FR SnGs, MTTs etc etc?

Do you guys think this is happening, too, right now????

If there is money to be made in a format you can bet your life there are bots/gto aids grinding them. Up to the highest limits.

You can probably make a decent 6max bot using presolved pio sims and a budget of 50k

Exactly this. Would you play chess online for money, knowing your opponent could easily be running an engine on the side?

The problem isn't with security. It's that it's plain irresponsible of poker sites to offer formats in which bots/dream machines will obviously thrive. There are probably dozens upon dozens of ways to make the game more complex and make it infeasible for bots to play, so think of something new.

Since Microgaming is explicitly called out in this video, I thought it was important to confirm that we proactively detected and closed the accounts related to this activity in 2017.

You don't have to take my word for it - it's in the video. You can see reference to it at 6:55, 10:43, 10:47 and 10:57.

If you'd like to know more about our proactive seizures and how money was returned to victims, you can go here: https://mpn.poker/show-us-your-stats/

I sincerely hope that the other sites mentioned in this video have improved their procedures since.