Just hire a guy to script and run pio Sims for a year on one of their servers. Then extract all the % stats from these datasets. E. G vpip pfr, check back flop on certain board % etc Yada Yada.

Then just run all your data u have on the Hu sng playing pool and do a correlation analysis with p value < 0,01. The players that remain are most likely super gto gods or simply bots.

Then u can investigate them separately. But overall too much work, money and simply not in their interest.

This. People saying this shouldn't be on TV 60minutes etc. are either blind or delusional. How could there ever be a proper legislation when u still have problems like this. U need to make this public, so sites are forced to do smt against it. Only then could there be a lesgislation for online poker again.

So everyone who is interested in the longterm intergrity of the online poker should share this thread to all his poker friends and all the poker forums he knows to enlighten the people about the problem and this thread to become so huge like comments and views . So the sites couldn't ignore it .

Deep dive into what?

The identity of the cheaters is known
The way they did it is known (thanks to OP)
Where they did it is known (basically all networks that offer HU SNG)

The question is who has incentive to go after them?

OK, so you're talking about the kinds of things I was expecting. It sounds like you think that comparing how people play to others is a very simple algorithm, and I believe it is not. All of what you described including altering their client and having people come in for a live test sounds well beyond "incredibly easy" which is why I believe smaller sites don't devote the resources to it. It's actually expensive and time consuming.

Yes, this exactly. Identifying GTO play is not simple just because you have access to all of their hole cards and actions. Even two different GTO bots playing perfectly will do different things in the exact same situation because of the randomized mixed strategies employed. It is all very difficult.

It's so funny. When u guys see how a bank is robbed, are u not going to call the police? What is happening here is basically the same. It's fraud, and the amounts of money we are talking here makes it a big one. Just go check out the Hu sng leader boards. There are still "regs" making 200-300k a year or more on Hu sng. And it's for sure not caus there are only weak recs out there, it's simply the fact that the honest regs cannot beat a gto trained software assistance

It's absolutely ridiculous that people here are really saying u should just ignore it. It's much bigger then the postle thing and therefore it should be on mainstream media, if possible.

Stars and the others would have a reason to ban these bots, only if this would happen.

Well for mutli million dollar companies I would class some of this stuff as pretty simple. Especially given we are talking about the security of their games and safety of their customers

It's a little difficult to get the full picture but I think stars hired 2+2 member watergun7 to do more less exactly that a few years ago after he found several bots using skier_5's DB software.

I think you need that type of security to run HUSNGs in 2019 or else you might as well do like WPN/ACR and completely remove HUSNGs from lobby above X stake.

To all doomsday guys: HU Hyper is the easiest format to GTO bot out of all popular poker games and it's fairly easy to design formats that are more difficult to bot by simply changing small things like blind structure in ways that creates more MW situations. MTTs are probably almost pointless to presolve with a solver to use realtime assistance beyond preflop and even preflop is probably difficult to presolve well.

Not this.

You can still go after them and clean things up. That can happen without it being on 60 Minutes. It would definitely help turn sentiment against online poker where it requires votes to get the legislation passed. It's not a big deal to me, but I just think the general public would just have the negatives stuck in their head, and that's who needs to be persuaded in order to get legislation passed. Legislators want to be re-elected.

Why are you equating not wanting it on 60 Minutes with ignoring it?

60m@cbsnews.com

"Terminator like supercomputers are helping human players defrauding honest poker gamblers out of millions and the casinos don't care"

OK. I'm actually not sure which side you're arguing since you started by saying this:
Is it "incredibly easy" or is it "very difficult"?

Poker is a game of data, some known some unknown. But the sites have all the data, all the mother f data. I can assure u if they wanted to, if their survival in the business would be depended on busting the bots, they could do it easily.


Even if they couldn't bust them all, they could force the bot users to deviate from gto to not be to easily caught. This would already be a success.

Amaya has so much more money then all the universities, and see what they already could do with poker and bots. No one can tell me that a multi billion dollar company, who had all the data, can't use it to find the bot users.

It's just not in their interest or they just have no incentive. It's not as big of a thing.

This is why it should be made bigger. Talk to media etc. Yada yada

I think it is easy to catch 95% of the botters and the other 5% are people who you can be highly suspicious of but not completely sure.

Ultimately if you think stars are doing a stellar job at catching people then fine. We can have different opinions

Bringing this to mass media will only make people think that online poker is a scam, that everyone is cheating, etc. And it probably won't make any of the guilty players get caught by justice.

What about the superusers from Ultimate Bet, were they ever brought to face any penalties, or do they go about like nothing happened?

What you have to do is bring the attention of the poker room and security team if they have any.

The poker room only will pay attention if it's seriously harming their business. For example by bad press, which u just described....

Hu sng are especially bad for the economy, caus one cheating s cumback will get all the money....

I don't care about punishment, as long as the bots are gone. Punishment in the Form of jail time would be amazing, but if they can't catch the bottlers but prevent others from starting, that would also be an epic win...

Bots aren’t going away lol. The only solution would be security measures that many customers simply won’t agree to. Everyone is using solver strategy, it would be very easy for bots to go under the radar using some tweaks. The bot rings that have been discovered and banned didn’t go away. They didn’t stop botting. All that happened was they made some tweaks or they paid a programmer to make some tweaks and they fired it up using someone else’s identity.

You don’t think an illegal or shady poker site won’t develop their own bots? I’m sure some sites already have.

I did not watch the entire video so maybe this is a dumb question ...

Is there anything (software, hardware, connections, etc.) on the computer set-up that a site could "detect" in this case, and ultimately prohibit?

Constant vibration to fold, one vibration to min bet, two to 2x bet, etc.? Genius.

Finally people start to realize how much money they stole. We speak millions of dollars here, i think botters took away 10 million+ at least. I knew some speculation that this guy earns 200k monthly and if you think about it it's possible. He covers lobbies from $50 to 5k literally 0-24 at least 5 rooms or more.
A legit HS hyper grinder can win 3-600k yearly with a normal 8 hour grinding.

I also heard that the famous winamax botter earned close to a million before the bann happened. And don't forget these guys win every rakerace etc, their RB is close to 100% (as it shows in the video where they talk about RBs) so they are not the perfect costumer.

And you also need to understand that behind these nicks there are several mediocre/good regulars so they don't just clicking buttons (also heard that the russians have fully automated bots on lower stakes). So the point is that after they won the war they play their regular play, exploit etc.
So if the sites would ask videos etc, they would easily pass since they don’t use their bot anymore. So basically they have to investigate the time they went to war.

Also i think the HS hyper community is really toxic and openly help these guys.
Just remember that Xrab joined the 1k hyper division on Pokerstars without any war while the rest had to war 20k+ games. So the top regs just simply let him play in return some spicey euro sites botting/sharing lobbies (watergun also confirmed this).
I know that no 1k reg will admit their role in this situation but i think letting him in Stars highest stakes was the most outrageous thing in the past years. And i could easily name 10+ legit PS 100+ division members who are sharing with xrab bots at this very moment, benefiting the bot defenders(no legit reg will try to take these lobbies anymore). Some „legit” PS div member even ask xrab bots to sit a legit regulars….
Without a united community with trusted regs in lead (but as you can see it above almost all of them have passive part of it) it’s really hard to win this war. I think ChicagoJoey would be a perfect candidate to make a pressure of these sites. ****ing postle cheated 300k while these guys tens of millions of dollars…

And OP should also give us more information if he started already. According to the chat logs he posted he was part of the highest stakes botters (he shows chats on 1k wars, when they talk about money, talking about 60-80k dollars which is definitely not the 50-100$ stakes). And there were just 3-6 guy who was this close to xrabs highest lobbies so he probably know a lot more, he also should know approx how much money they stole.

I'm done with online poker.

The sad thing is that all of this is well known even to little kids for a long time, about Xrabreneca, and all other botlord scumbags, if the non PS sites wanted to do anything at all about it, they would have done it.

It's one thing to be hesitant and careful to act so you don't ban and hurt innocent players without super high % of confidence that the player is cheating, it's a whole other ball game EVERYBODY and their mother know exactly what these mother****ers are doing, and not just gather enough evidence and get them banned and funds confiscated, not to mention that even without anything sites I'm sure can say that the player is not wanted in their site for whatever reasons, and has x days to withdraw funds, if not anything else. But from almost all non PS sites - 0% action. This makes the sites accomplices of the scammers, just as guilty.

If a bot is relying on a screen scraper for its data, would it be possible for the site to scatter some dis-information on the screen being scraped?

The only extra software on the poker PC is a table organizer, but that just seems to ensure the location and size of the tables are exactly where expected by the OCR (optical character recognition) software on the other PC. The data gets to the other PC via an HDMI splitter with a protection device so the poker PC can't detect that the stream going to the monitor is being split off.

So other than the table organizer, there is nothing extra on the poker PC. And they could probably do other things to adjust for the location/size of each window if they weren't exact, so it's probably not a showstopper if they couldn't use it.

What I think could be done is for the poker client software to regularly change the position and sizes of the tables, or what might be more effective, change where and how things on the table are displayed. Kind of like captcha in that a human would still be able to easily see the info, but very difficult for software to scrape the info from it.