And it will still beat you (unless you start playing GTO), because GTO doesn't need to adjust. That's the whole point of GTO.

To be fair, a game needn't be solved in order for perfect or near-perfect players to exist (see: Cepheus, which, as a reminder, didn't actually solve HUFLHE). For all we know, if AlphaZero is given a few minutes per move, it might already be perfect at Chess, despite the fact that it hasn't mathematically solved it. This after only a few days of training (on very powerful hardware, granted).

I'll definitely agree that this is a fair point. There's no question that AI is getting unbelievably powerful and adaptive but I still think these guys are really blowing this out of proportion which was my main point. I did spend a few years of my life being part of the vocal minority instead of just enjoying things for what they were and in the end I realized I was just cutting off my nose to spite my face.

how can we be blowing this out of proportion? when was the last time you even played the stakes that have been flooded by bots in the last 3-5 years?

i think if you fired up a 100nl table on WPN right now and grinded for just one night you would understand the worries we have.

again, the only reason you aren't being raped at higher stakes is because they risk forfeiture of a relatively large amount of money and bringing too much attention to the scourge of bots.

i guarantee all you who are attempting to minimize the situation will be saying something very different in another 3 years....once they've figured out ways to make them undetectable, its GG.

Different people are going to worry to varying degrees. That's natural. I'm just saying that instead of making the entire poker landscape out to be dead, over and done with, and killed by solvers - Let's (as the community has) identify the problem, isolate it, and then start addressing the sites in numbers. A new market could open up for solver detection software, we could start having "cam only" tables, etc. Rather than just stick our tale between our legs let's actually try to be proactive, optimistic (realistically, not just because it feels good), and adapt our game just as we would (and have to) at the tables. There are legitimate opportunities hidden within this problem.

Bots, solvers, lack of bonus/rewards for US players and their facing networks. These are (in order) the three most pressing issues that need to be addressed. Let's start addressing them effectively. Some in the community have expressed the willingness to go through any lengths of security checks to play both online and live as long as they know every player is going through them to that degree. I think there's a lot to be explored and expanded upon there. This could be the entry point to perhaps bringing hole cams, "pressure cams", and other audience enticing features back into the limelight in order to make the game more marketable on television again, while simultaneously making both live and online venues more secure. The root of all of this is in making the online game more popular first, however. As said, let's focus on that and do so in numbers.

ok so you're in the "it's a real problem but it can be mitigated" camp.

i wish i agreed but I'm very concerned that this slow, silent takeover of the games has and is very effectively killing off the dreams and ambitions of becoming a professional poker player. I even get asked by people if i'm playing against other people or a "computer' when I play online poker...

fwiw i do agree there should be some solutions...the problem is that the sites are denying the extent of the problem instead of embracing it as a challenge and facing it head on.

how about bot-only tables where bot owners can battle it out with their AI...or bot allowed tables where you are at least aware of the possibility.

i mean how long until a site says **** it and brings their own house-bots to the games and it's just one human playing at a table against 8 other bots using differing profiles with an overall break even winrate?

lol - Battle Bot Poker! Honestly: That's not a bad idea, IMO. That would then open up a whole market for software that creates and customizes bots. With improved bot detection in the non bot games, we'd probably be even better off than we are now. This is what I'm saying: There are legitimate, profitable opportunities in this game currently that will simultaneously improve the security of these sites.

Are 5 years not enough to secure the retirement with poker? Why?

Even if not, Stars is working a lot on AI detection, which is making the task harder for a cheater - the AI has to act in a human fashion that's similar to the style of the owner of the account so that, when Stars requests the video of the account owner playing, the style in that session matches the bot's style.

I found this on another thread and it seemed interesting enough to add here.

Bots have been around for quite a while now, and card rooms have got very good at detecting them. The problem hasn’t been eliminated completely, but a lot of time and resources have gone into defeating them and improving the integrity of the game.

Recently, however, there have been a spate of accusations, and even admissions, of the use of real-time solvers (see the spin‘n’go thread sng-spin-gos/official-spin-gos-discussion-thread-1478337/index253.html).

I think of them as “cyborgs”- real people at the tables aided by software. Trying to get the term to catch on, so feel free to share.
GTO solvers have been around for a while and, as anyone has used them knows, there’s a lot of computing required and solutions can take some time to calculate- useless for real-time assistance. However, certain forms of poker lend themselves to quicker solutions; if there are limited positions and shorter stacks, combined with some “known” variables, solutions can be produced quickly enough to be used. HU hypers and spin ‘n’ goes are where all of the accusations have been levelled.

As computing speed increases, it is only logical to assume that GTO solvers will be able to produce results quickly enough to be used in ALL forms of poker. This is an existential threat to the future of the online game. You only have to look at other “solved” games to see what that means- only a fool would play Backgammon online for more than pennies, given the quality and speed of the solvers out there.

The question is- what can the card rooms do to detect or prevent their use? The fact there’s a human sat at the keyboard renders some measures ineffective, and an appeal to their better nature is never going to work.
What do people think should be done? How can the sites detect these players?

If its just a straight forward bot then it wouldn't be able to adapt however a "CYBORG" would.

Machine learning is generally applicable to all poker games. Any poker game can be written as a matrix (or M-ary tree).

what? , GTO vs GTO is basically EV 0 poker , take that into small or micro stakes rake and its pretty much ev- reg vs reg (but they still profit vs fish)

GTO is good @ high stakes because of tiny rake and good regulars , still they try to exploit each other if they can.

I've been playing poker now for 8 years.

Over this period I have played millions of hands of online poker, watched countless poker training videos, experimented with Poker Snowie, and have spent huge amounts of time watching Twich streams from good players like Ristokat.

Now I'm a break even 25 NL player. Why? Massive rake and Bots.

I never really considered bots being a problem in poker but now my eyes are open. It's just so obvious.

I consider myself to be a smart, hard working, disciplined guy. I have a masters degree. Sorry to hoot my own horn but I know that I'm smarter than the average person.

So why can't I beat these micro stakes games despite all of the work that I have put in? It's bots guys. And massive Rake. Bots are everywhere in online poker right now.

There's just no other real explanation.

That's the good thing about poker. The only way to win a tournament or go on a cash game heater is to win flips or hit a few two outters, or turn your flush draw and river your open ended straight.

Even if you had a bot that played perfectly it would still have losing sessions.

What if we are all AI already anyways, nomsayin brahs?

Good post. Although sadly all you will get are snide remarks like 'lol improve, you're lazy, you're just bad at poker etc.'.

No offence, but why has it only dawned on you now that bots are a problem? You only have to look at the Poker Goals and Challenges section and see that there are literally no threads with people grinding on Party/Ipoker. Why? Because it's 90% bots on those sites. Even Pokerstars has bots, but fewer of them because their security does take it at least somewhat seriously.

get a decent coach, there is still money to be made , until nl200 ~ games are very beatable with some hard work in the right direction.

Thanks. I guess my eyes were shut because of my love for the game. I wanted to make some good money doing something that I really enjoyed.

But, now it's so clear. Bots are everywhere and the problem is only going to get worse.

I guess when money is involved it just attracts a lot of bad greedy people who are always going to look to cheat regular players out of their money.

Live games are so juicy and fun when real players get together to play.

Online 10 NL and 25 NL games are bot ridden nit fests

Why would he bother when you can make more money in a proper career + all the other benefits a real job brings? Go for it if you have some deep over-riding passion and natural talent for the game, but otherwise embark on a real career instead of slaving away behind a computer screen for peanuts with no security of income.

Sure thats a better option if you can't win anymore i was just saying that games are still beatable if you a good of work in the right direction.

Beatable, but not worth playing for a living. 10 years ago, people were clearing 6 figures grinding 100-200nl. Now you have to put in 10 times the effort to make a quarter of that figure. And games are getting worse and worse each year.

?? Having a masters degree has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence. At all. Further, you're not even a US player. You have access to any site you want. How can you not beat 25NL? Tons of US players with less options than you for cash games profit at stakes much higher. I'm sorry but you don't profit because you're not good enough. Please don't blame your own personal failures on poker being broke. It's not - You are. The simple fact that you think having a masters degree means you're intelligent shows just how ignorant you are and why you can't beat drunk 18 year olds.

I'm Irish and even I can see you sitting there, brew in hand, big red beard swinging, pounding away at the keyboard and mouse, trying to beat some of the worst online players there are, and getting absolutely reamed for about -15bb/100. "Oh, geez, me don't understand! I have a Masters degree! I'm entitled to win!!".

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker Tracking Software

NL Holdem $0.25(BB)
HJ ($135.71) [VPIP: 29.2% | PFR: 20.8% | AGG: 40% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 24]
CO ($126.85) [VPIP: 24.4% | PFR: 16.7% | AGG: 25.8% | 3-Bet: 6.7% | Hands: 168]
BTN ($8.89) [VPIP: 10% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 33.3% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 10]
HERO ($25.7) [VPIP: 38.5% | PFR: 23.3% | AGG: 33.1% | 3-Bet: 6.3% | Hands: 15125]
BB ($23.1) [VPIP: 80% | PFR: 30% | AGG: 16.7% | 3-Bet: 50% | Hands: 10]

Dealt to Hero: K K

HJ Raises To $0.60, CO Folds, BTN Folds, HERO Raises To $2.15, BB Calls $1.90, HJ Calls $1.55

Hero SPR on Flop: [3.25 effective]
Flop ($6.45): 5 9 2
HERO Bets $4.05 (Rem. Stack: 19.50), BB Folds, HJ Calls $4.05 (Rem. Stack: 129.51)

Turn ($14.55): 5 9 2 2
HERO Bets $7.08 (Rem. Stack: 12.42), HJ Raises To $129.51 (allin), HERO Calls $12.42 (allin)

River ($163.56): 5 9 2 2 A



Goes on all day and night. Again: If you can't even win 1bb/100 against these players - the issue is you, not poker. The games are fine.

If you spent anywhere near as much time working on your game as you do trolling these forums with nonsense about how the game's broken and unbeatable: You very well may be a profiting player. There are 21 year olds with gorgeous girlfriends making 6 figures playing online poker who read these threads and laugh their heads off at you guys and your frustration of not being able to beat the micros.

Mods should start locking/deleting these threads. They're just totally not based in reality whatsoever.

Bots are the new pokers rigged. People always need something to blame their short comings on. If you've been playing poker longer than 1 year and can't beat 25nl then you're lying to yourself with whatever reasons you come up with other than "I'm simply not good at poker"

Not being able to beat 25NL in 1 year is a little steep. I'll give people far more leeway than that. The Leprechaun is playing for 8+ years though. He's read books, watched countless videos, he has charts slapped up all over his walls, he has a MASTER'S DEGREE, he studies endlessly, and he has played millions of hands. Still, he can't muster even 1bb/100 @ 25NL and it's all the fault of the big bad bots. What a joke.

All stereotypes aside, we're too busy drinking and getting into fights to be grinding Pio.

LOL @ Maximus122: It says his interests are "ballin" LOL. Does this include getting wtfstacked by 25NL whales? Is that the 2018 definition of "ballin" in OIRLAND?

Poor guy. With his "love of the game" (LOL) and master's degree, can you imagine how hard he'd be crushing it and ballin if it weren't for the bots?