Reason fish dont play online poker.

1. Its rigged
2. No physical tells online
3. Its not as fun/social
4. Its hard to deposit
...
24. HUDs

Respect to Richas.

To all you pros n wannabes. Get a job u bums. Treat poker as your part time thing. You are ruining it for all of us

On a more serious note re the HUDS CANT BE BANNED line.... Why can't they? Is it because there is a work around for everything?

Couldnt players allow sites to access their screen a la team viewer ?

Congratulations! You managed to disprove something I said. I was obviously wrong when I said only the most mediocre bot would continue to make the same mistake over and over again without adjusting.

Honestly, it's this kind of attitude, above all, that pushes the fish out of the pool. You're some guy who probably grinds 40k a year talking down to everyone because they chose careers other than poker, and instead play for fun instead. You are so blind and condescending, my comments will do nothing though. Too bad people like you screw things up for the casual and professional players.

Today the entr point to poker is online (well in any sensible country that lets you play) so the new player does not even get your 1) and 2) at all. So here is my list

1) It is no fun
2) They lose quicker than if they played slots
3) They can tell within minutes they are being raped
4) Nobody they know is starting playing or playing anymore

oh we might find another reason but...they've gone and quit already so who gives a ****?

Poker is not my career I play a little on the side, mostly for fun and a little extra money.

I was trying to steer the conversation towards what can be changed to make more games and got roped into this stupid conversation about someone's false representation on HUDs.

This is so wrong. I've seen PLENTY of winning players do this. Many of them prob frustrated at their declining hourly

Occasionally ballers do it too but these days "ballers" really means "volume sicko".... So they don't have time

The representation of HUDs is not about how the pro's perceive them, it's how the fish. When I play live there are several guys who lose 6 figures a year at poker but refuse to play online and HUDs are one of the main reasons. I play with these people and I'm telling you. Get out of the house once in a while and see for yourself. There is a lot of money out there to win, but you won't attract the big fish if you keep treating it like a game of Starcraft.

I feel that people claiming that HUDs do sinister things that they don't do helps reinforce that idea which is why I wanted to correct it.

A HUD is constantly giving you data that you can use to transform into meaningful information to help you make better decisions. But to obtain that data required no skill!

After every hand of rush/zoom do I(or anyone without a HUD) note down all the players that were on my table and who folded/limped/raised/3bet/did a button steal/big blind 3 bet... NO..

Did your software capture that data and provide you with that so you can make better decisions in future meetings? Yes

Is that an unfair advantage - from my point of view, Yes!

I don't want the solution to be 'get a HUD to make it fair then'... i want it to be.. 'Play only with others who don't play with such software"

Exactly the same response I get when I discuss online poker with casual players at my LC too

No fun/too hard to win/HUD database cheats/ possibly rigged (in that order)

That's a separate issue and you're entitled to your opinion.. I was only trying to correct one gross misrepresentation on HUDs.

From my experience, it seems that ultimate losers are the only people berating one way or another. The clueless loser whines about rigging, and the losers that think they should be winners are the typical condescending posters.

I feel that winning players don't get involved in comment wars. They win pots. And smile silently.

HUDs are to poker as steroids are to sports

The average recreational player has no idea HUD even exist. The anti-HUD complaining comes mostly from bad "regs" that need something to blame for their demise.

If the casual has hardcore friends he may know. If he has only casual friends he won't know. I have a buddy who was only a marginal winner back ten years ago when the games were soft at all forms of poker. Now he busts even to marginally loses at chump stakes that he should be able to grind a steady profit. I explained to him he might be up against colluding Chinese bots, Russian bots(he plays stud). This is as at 5 cent ten cent games. Back ten years ago he used to be able to marginally beat 50 cent a dollar when actual fish played even this high. The casual losing fish will only play big MTT fields in the near future because of the big payouts to the winners and final table players. Why would any sane Western person want to play chump stakes like this and not get any action?

Whether it tells you exactly what to do or whether it just provides you with data/information to aid you.. it is an unfair advantage either way. Only how big of an unfair advantage is it, is the argument between you and the other guys.

I hear people say how much poker has 'evolved' over the last 5 years and to me the change has come because of HUDs.

I will argue (with my highly credible fish knowledge) that if HUDs were not allowed, that poker would ...regress back to a state in which players (regs) would make a lot more mistakes and exploitative strategies in poker would not be as effective and multi-tablers would almost be flying blind.

People say poker has evolved... I just think online poker has changed because of HUDs and now it is a different game. There are now extra elements in the game - HUDs, databases and table ninjas...

When I play a game I want to have a fair chance/equal playing field. knowing the playing field is already not even, makes casual players (like me) not want to play..

It feels like I am playing chess against you but i have to play without a queen from the start.

A game that is not fair, is a game that is not fun.

You guys are just going back and forth.

Fact: HUDs give you information that you normally wouldn't be able to obtain, kind of similar to data-mining. Apparently if you're not playing at the table, getting hand data is unfair, but if you're auto-piloting 24 tables then it's okay because you're actually playing. There shouldn't be any difference between the two.

Maybe a software where you can manually press "raise/3bet/fold to cbet/etc" for each villain each hand. That way you'd actually have to be paying attention.

Fact: Youre wrong.

What misrepresentation? You have colour coded badges that are player specific, position specific, street specific that give you highly targeted information about how to exploit that player. If the pretty picture is not enough for you or you have a marginal decision you can click on the spark graph to give his history for that specific spot.

The algorithms used for those badges are basically the same as would be needed for an adaptive bot that adjusts to players.

You do have a badge that tells you to three bet and cbet specific players with ATC. If you choose not to follow that advice so be it but you hav been given that in game advice.

You seem to think that I believe HUDs are all powerful. I don't. They are a tool which becomes more useful to you with add on software and illegal data. It does not make you or anyone any good. Indeed part of my thesis is that they promote a boring formulaic and likely long term less profitable style of play. The main point though is that those tools make online cash play so unatractive to new players that new players are put off online poker altogether.

None of that have you refuted. Indeed it is difficult to see what you are moaning about in terms of mistrepresentation. I teased you about just one of your bought badges, said you had it and lo you do. A badge that flags upp when a specific action/line is profitable against that player with Any Two Cards.

Is it 2004 again? Hope I can get a few bets on who will win the WSOP ME - Greg Raymer is a superstar.

They certainly present information to you for use in game. Information from hand histories. Now sometimes that database is all yours, sometimes not. Without the software tool you could not use that information in game.

As it happens I am Ok with use of own data for basic stats, so long as opponents know that you have that tool. I'm not OK with detailed in game advice for specific situations or illegal data.

Well, in game advice has to be given during the hand right? Afaik only MagicHoldem does that. Is it that program you have a problem with or all HUDs?

By most accounts the in game advice from MagicHoldem is pants but I've never used it.

In general though for me the line should be that basic information is OK (so long as opponents know you are doing it and no illegal data is used) but in game advice should be verbotten. Anything that is hand, player, position or situational specific crosses the line for me.