Regs--the fish are your customers. You can keep your big edge in a small pie or you can give up some edge and grow the pie.

I'm a break even LHE and O8 live rec player. I made some good coin 7-9 years ago 1 or 2 tabling online without HUD when it was full of horrible fish. Now I haven't made a profit in several years such that I may deposit 200 a year and otherwise play when I'm offered some free play by a site.

I'm in my 40s. Have a very good job and a family. It's simply not fun online anymore. I don't have the time or energy to invest in HUD.

I'm exactly the kind of guy you want. Good enough to have some success which is enjoyable but not as good as you. But now I don't get the fun part so I stay away.

So keep your big edge and keep fighting over a smaller and smaller fish pool.

They need to have built in bonuses. jackpot hands. bad beat jackpots. Random stuff. No rake back, more gimmicks. Make the money they are giving back more visible to the average player, but in the end less than the unsustainable models used by sites like lock.

You are wayyyyyyy over estimating the POWER of HUDs. I enjoy using one because it allows my mind to wander (I don't have to pay super close attention to pick up reads because the HUD keeps track of the info. I need). But, I definitely don't need one. Instead of bitching about HUDs, why not get one? or EAD? or both

In my experience games without huds are better than ones with them for fish. (tho it's always fun to see a reg completely misuse one)

I think an academy thing is brilliant with every day "pull off some major bluff or win 2 hands with *insert absolutely terrible hand* for X points" where X leads into bonuses or something.

Bluff minraise the river and get your opponent to fold.

I think I could come up with a ton of great ones.

It's day 23, that means it's 2 3 offsuit day!

etc etc

Indeed. William Hill (and possibly other iPoker skins) even offers new signups a free HUD.
There are plenty of smaller/fishier "recreational player model" sites that don't have HUD support, but bad players go broke on those sites too.

Since we are talking about online mostly, the biggest complaint I have heard is "it's all rigged". So I think the most important thing to draw new players in is TRUST in the company. That goes to the second biggest complaint I have heard "internet poker is full of bots". A company with a great marketing campaign and TRUST would be a haven for new players. As far as HUDs go, whether they give an unfair advantage over the rec players is irrelevant...it's the perception. I know as a fish the pros are already better than I am so if I think they have technology helping them to get my money faster then it's going to make me not want to deposit again. And before you go tell me to buy one: I am already okay with losing my money as long as I enjoy my experience so why would you tell me to buy one and get better?

who told you to buy one? i'm just saying you CAN buy one. if you choose not to, how can you say pros have an unfair advantage?

agree 1 million % about your trust comments.

It always amazes me when fish, who by definition are not good at poker, come here and tell us all the things that need to change with the game to get them back. They don't really understand the game or HUDs. By the way fish use HUDs too and I always got a kick from watching them read out player stats and their interpretations.

Instead of coming here and saying what needs to change.... which if you haven't figured out I don't think most are qualified to do... Why not start out by saying what it is you didn't like that caused you to stop playing. It's important to point out the actual problems before throwing out solutions. I mean your actual issues that you personally observed and experienced.

So what is it that made you stop and why don't you care about reload bonuses since it seems like it would be something you did from time to time?

P.S. it's not like players really have the power to do anything about this anyway. This is something you need to take up with the Poker Sites themselves. you're never going to get people to ban together and boycott a site over huds. people didn't even boycott Ultimate Bet after they KNEW there was cheating. Even some of the cheated players eventually became spokespeople for the site! so huds are literally never going away. no point in even requesting at (I mean obv never say never, etc etc,...but in the foreseeable future).

No it's not. Also OP, of all of your suggested changes, it is kind of telling that lowering the rake isn't one of them. In fact, that is never a suggestion in any of the "bring me back to the game" threads. If you had a deeper understanding of poker, you'd realize that your #1 enemy is rake.

Bovada has a sportsbook and a ton of USA players while Stars/FTP do not. You can't just attribute the difference to anon tables when there are a lot of variables changing at once.

What you are saying is true, but those players will not be playing anyway since those players will always find an excuse to explain their losses other than their own poor play.

The proliferation of threads like this indicates there is some problem but iPoker will never be the same as live Poker; it's not the same game.

Live poker doesn't allow someone to play twelve tables and also use electronics devices to monitor and record opponent behavior. It's a change of the rules that's not readily apparent because the rules never anticipated it being possible.

I have seen live players use electronic devices to record player behavior at a single table, my observations being at the Venetian, the result was no action when the player was in a hand unless he was beaten.

I use a hud and agree with recs that its unfair and has harm to them and the game overall.

Poker needs recreational players and being a rec, its for fun and getting a hud is not fun and doesnt fit into poker for them. To a rec, they want to make a choice based on w/e reason they want. Having a hud and seeing the numbers dictates what they should do is not recreational poker.

For the people who says says huds are fair game because its available to everyone, its his fault for not having one is dumb. You want poker to flourish which depends on the recs but you want to have the best edge possible so you can get as much coin as you can. It doesnt work both ways and thats why poker is dying. Its not fun for them at all. Losing a buy in more quickly, being hunted, being called fish and yelled at for making a dumb call, knowing there are huds out there, etc. Add it all up and its BS to them. I would like to guess that a big reason that poker is still sustainable is because of the degenerate people who have gambling problems.

People who use huds and think its fair has the same thinking that a USA player is glad PS is being bought out and entering the USA market. Selfish.

They want all they can get for themselves even if its bad overall. As long as they get theres is all that matters.

I use a hud therefore I am selfish. In the end, I have to make it fair for me since others are using it but wouldn't if it was against TOS.

That point is that the fish PERCEIVE it to not be a level playing field.

You can't argue "you can't take away my HUD" and "HUD doesnt really give an advantage". Which is it? If its not an advantage then why are you using it and why don't you want to stop using it?

Of course us fish can also use HUD in theory, but we don't want to and don't like playing with you when you do. Thats how this fish feels at least, I don't think I'm alone.

People arguing over HUDs in this thread are worse for the game than HUDs.
You can NOT take away HUDs because we are dealing with a computer where people can always program a way to display their statistics when they have data.

Make a new asking for eliminating of screen names if you are that passionate about destroying HUDs but mark my warning, there will be huge issues when you go the anonymous path.

And people come into these threads and say this, in the face of evidence that indicates it isn't the case. The more you repeat something, the more true it is? Who cares about fair or not with regard to HUD? You say it is killing the game. Would it kill the game more on sites that allow it, or ones that ban them or make them impossible to use? Go to pokerscout and look for sites that banned HUD (Cake) or made them worthless (Bodog).

All of the long, meandering "good of the game" posts aside, where is your evidence? Bad players whining about why they don't play online? Fine. Is that the target demographic for a poker site wanting to expand business? Maybe it is. It is odd that those people who really want to play online didn't escape HUDs by moving to rooms that prevented them. Maybe it is more fun to post on internet forums about the inherent unfairness than to play poker.

What I want in a poker room

1. I trust them not to steal my money
2. There are lots of games that I like to play
3. Those games run when I want to play
4. That I can get my money on and off the site, easier the better
5. That I think the site does a good job catching cheaters
6. That the software is at least decent

Go look at the top traffic sites vs. that list and see if there is no correlation or huge correlation between doing well on that list and the winners. Maybe look at fish friendly features (no HUD, no or little RB, non-grinder tables, small maximum table limits), and see if any of those features seem to propel a site to the top. Hint: my list crushes the current high traffic sites and the fish friendly stuff seems to have no bearing.

How is a hud even a problem for recreationals?, only time i look at my hud much is for a) mass multi tabling & b) exploiting regs. A hud may notice someone is limping half his hands but that;s something you would notice too if your playing limited # of tables, in depth stats dont help you over small samples hence vs recreations a hud is only really used for mass tablers to keep a track on player types while grinding 1k+ hands an hr.


The real problem is government & big edges regs have over fish, reduce the BB playable for standard tables and fish win more & redeposit more, simple.


p.s It's a biatch to deposit money online as well, hence government screws us.

People keep saying to remove huds but ignore the fact that it's 100% impossible. Stars can't ban HUDs completely and stop all players from using them. So why are we even ****ing discussing this? It is not technically possible to enforce.

Before I add my 2 cents, I do not use a HUD but I am not against them. I'm a live player and I take advantage of all resources that help me improve my game in that format.

How does an online rec player even know who and how many players at his/her table are using a HUD unless those players chat you stating they have one and your stats are xx/xx/xx? I think saying HUDs are killing the game is silly. It's a tool, not a solution to the game. If you wanted to ban HUDs, add training sites, books, coaching to the list as they all serve the same purpose of giving you an informational edge in your game.

If HUDs really bother you, live poker is the option. I prefer live for the social aspect of it. You can take stacks and those players can still have fun as long as you keep it respectful and treat it like a game to them even though you may playing to put milk in the fridge.

If you want to play 'missions' or achievement award type games, don't they make a WSOP XBox/Playstation poker game where you can play the pros and win virtual bracelets, stack virtual millions and bluff Hellmuth?

Oh, you like poker because you can win $$? I see, well then what I understand is that your type of fun = winning $$. In that case, read a fun poker book, watch a fun training video, post here about a fun hand you had and how you could have played it better and make more $$. Lastly, if you want to win $$...I mean have fun playing online poker, maybe learn to use a HUD.

On the lighter side of it all, maybe they can try introducing this failure one more time and make those looking for something new feel special....

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news...-is-on-the-way

Two things.
1) When I said HUNL+2 cards =PLO , you obviously don't get sarcasm or have not read the Isildur1 on Phil Galfond thead - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...lfond-1239498/
2) I know poker is a negative sum game due to rake but reducing rake is not my issue

I am by no means a losing player. I was a small stakes bankroll nit (never putting on more than 1% of my roll on a table at any time).
What that means is I never went bust/had to reload, i would just go up and down in the limits (very slowly) but cracking the higher stakes limits where the Regs with HUDs edge out made it difficult.

The one place I wish HUDs did not exist is Rush/Zoom because so much of it is about stealing blinds - knowing if the players in the blinds defend or give up their blinds easily is a huge edge to have. Or knowing when to 3bet bluff from the big blind against a player whos stats say he tries to steal when on the button almost every hand.
Without any skill or effort your HUD tracks those pre-flop tendencies and you exploit them. Your HUD tells you what to do and you are a monkey pushing a button. You may make money, but that is because you play poker like a JOB. I I don't want to play poker like its a a job.

I want to play poker the way I would play live poker. i want to play HUDless NLH against players that also like that variation of poker. If you want to play HUD NLH, then play that variation against the others that want to also play that way.

How bad is Pokerstars and Fulltilt poker?

Do only pros and rakeback grinders play there now?

Is it really that bad?

Do they not advertise?

Yes I'm American and I have no clue how online poker is other than Bovada.

how can you say you want to play like you would play live but play zoom? when I play live my MAIN advantage is I have the time to see every single hand and gets reads and act accordingly. to me that's poker...using your BTN example: it's not having a chart of hands I always raise on the button. I want to raise certain hands vs certain people and fold vs certain people. I want to get to learn how people play and adjust to them. a HUD might tell you how often a person is folding, but it's not going to tell me what I should open. I've spent 100s and 1,000s of hours thinking about which hands to open. a hUD doesn't magically tell me what to open. sry you still don't understand that and I really wish it was clearer for more people.

(especially if you play live for a few weeks at a time in the same room...you get to really know the regs and they get to know you...and that's when it becomes really fun to me. to see what you can use to your advantage and figure out if they are pushing in spots to abuse you).

I mean I can understand playing a HUDless table where you can observe people but you really can't even do that in zoom.

so you are just picking and choosing what you like about online. you like zoom because of the action / speed / whatever. well along with it comes stuff other people like.

and can you please stop saying stuff about "without and skill or effort your hud tracks tendencies?" Let me give you my HUD and let's play a little together one night. hah (just kidding but hopefully you understand my point here).

Keep it in mind that this is only Zoom poker up to 25NL but the play while nitty from the regulars is still exploitable and the casual players are as bad as ever with lagtards, calling stations and spazz monkeys. Also many Russians and Ukrainians over play ak, aq and 10/10 and JJ if they think they can push you around.

the achievements idea is gold.

if i was a rec and i saw that i had stolen the blinds 7/10 times for an achievement which would net me a ticket to a 5K GTD (really just a $1 ticket), i'd be so excited and work my ass off to complete it.

Places like party, ftp, prima, unibet have software or and some stuffs for hobby players who play a couple hours per week, it being about graphics, badges, balanced cards in cases, while stars is more professional and the better players win there, that i cant verify about many biggest networks.

The 2nd group of losing players are the nits, that spoil the games, and one better have a hud so one is aware of them and i think sites should have basic hud in the software itself, like party, one could click and see their session and maybe longer run stats also. That imo is an extremely good idea, and then one can color code them and make some note s.

Pokerstars is the pro site on net, but surprisingly? the biggest. Seems to tell what kind of customers site should mostly aim to have and what the rng should be like.

There are beginner tables at some sites, but its for new on site players and so serve nothing.

Fun but professional software is good for all types.

Elimination of mass multitabling at one limit and form is definitely good, making it 4 tables max.

Half pot limit preflop. 20 to 40 cap for nlh, 40 to 60 cap for plo, is action and more fun, the 100x supporting nitting at most limits and being too much for fish and hobby players, though the ante games might be still good, but i think they are a rip off for weak players, who probably enjoy s.g the most at this time, at nlh, the rake also less eating them up.

The poker game as graphics, badges, caps, base stats, getting near the feel of other fun games, makes it feel more fun, eg. unibet software produces such view, and ftp partly, the prima badges, though for big sites the badges like that are a bit of a joke, and at party they serve mainly as personal history, rather than some status stuffs one aims for like at prima. Its about hobby players having more fun, though they are not to be the main aim for the site, but can be integrated. Some rare serious players like me also like more these hobby player friendy stuffs, while most others like it best as rocky grind with big stack, and so its what sites should mostly serve but give others too what they like.

so basically you like huds because it allows you not to bother to play the game, as the hud will do that for you. might as well just cut out the middle man and use a bot if that's how "you" play.

personally i'm done with NLHE, at least cash, don't want to bother with a game where there's a ton of regulars autopiloting using computer assistance, slowing the game down by playing too many tables, and whining when they can't beat players who are using a game's structure to their advantage, rather than adapting their game/playing a game where it's not a factor. i'll be sticking to omaha and other non-holdem games