Mike Johnson, just like in any field of business, people respect those who have been around long enough to prove their skill/worth not those who get lucky early on....granted if Frankenburger was crushing cash games this wouldn't be much of an issue but hes luckboxing live MTTs where a years results has very little in common with skill......these guys come and go all the time so we'll see where he is in 5-10 years.
Mike Johnson, just like in any field of business, people respect those who have been around long enough to prove their skill/worth not those who get lucky early on....granted if Frankenburger was crushing cash games this wouldn't be much of an issue but hes luckboxing live MTTs where a years results has very little in common with skill......these guys come and go all the time so we'll see where he is in 5-10 years.
I don't really understand how saying he's not a poker pro indicates this.
Wouldn't it be easier to just say "it's unclear whether he's actually any good at poker or not" instead of bring the whole pro/amateur thing into it?
This is the thinking that is putting some people on life tilt. What do we learn in poker? Don't be results orientated. Short term results mean next to nothing. What are you doing? Focusing on a very small sample of extreme rungood and deciding he is a great player.
I don't begrudge him his success. Its great for the game and he seems like a decent fellow. Nothing he has done so far indicates that he is anything other than a fish on a heater however. A very lucrative heater but a heater nonetheless.
If Cletus in BFE Alabama wins the lottery it doesn't mean that you should hire him as your financial consultant.
Dude, he didn't just bink 1 tnry. Ya, it's a small sample size but after 100 abs in the big leagues we can also tell that Bryce Harper can hit. He's got 2 bracelets and a WPT and who knows what else.
And I am not results oriented in the sense you're saying. If when he folded QQ and Yevgeny had 27 it doesn't make him an idiot and if Yevgeny had AA it doesn't make him a genius b/c it was a bad fold regardless.
And winning a ton does count for something. Realize I didn't say he was gr8, I said his results seem to make him a stud.
Dude, he didn't just bink 1 tnry. Ya, it's a small sample size but after 100 abs in the big leagues we can also tell that Bryce Harper can hit. He's got 2 bracelets and a WPT and who knows what else.
And I am not results oriented in the sense you're saying. If when he folded QQ and Yevgeny had 27 it doesn't make him an idiot and if Yevgeny had AA it doesn't make him a genius b/c it was a bad fold regardless.
And winning a ton does count for something. Realize I didn't say he was gr8, I said his results seem to make him a stud.
lol, we have waaaaay more information on Bryce Harper's game than Andy Frankenberger's.
He actually seems like a fairly nice guy, and not just some moody grinder with one word responses.
Just gained a lot of respect for him, regardless for how he plays.
Plus, if Frankenberger played perfect A+ poker all the time, would you really want him at your table?
I just watched that QQ clip. However bad the fold was (and it was very, very bad), it was nowhere near as bad as the actions of some of the other players afterwards. Chastising someone for their bad play is far more -EV than any mistake a player can make with his cards. And obviously it is classless and mean-spirited too.
So if you started off wealthy, you'll never be a poker pro no matter what you do?
I read that Isildur's bankroll started at around $2k. Does that make him less of a poker pro than Tom Dwan because I also read that Dwan's BR started at a few $50 deposits.
What if some affluent 18-year-old decides he's going to dedicate the rest of his life to being a poker pro?
Frankenberger plays poker pretty much around the clock, 40+ hours a week, or so it seems at this WSOP. I think that's qualification enough to be considered a pro.
I may have missed one or two earlier posts but im not saying he is not a pro.
Im just saying that he didnt start from scratch in poker so it takes a little shine off how good he is.
I may have missed one or two earlier posts but im not saying he is not a pro.
Im just saying that he didnt start from scratch in poker so it takes a little shine off how good he is.
You do realize this makes no sense, right? A person's poker skill isn't weighted against their starting advantage. If Phil Ivey started with a 100k role it wouldn't make him "worse" than if he started with a 10k role. He makes the decisions he makes while playing poker which yields him an average profit. That's it. Maybe Andy not starting from scratch takes out some of the romance of poker, but oh well, guess he's not a very romantic dude.
I just watched that QQ clip. However bad the fold was (and it was very, very bad), it was nowhere near as bad as the actions of some of the other players afterwards. Chastising someone for their bad play is far more -EV than any mistake a player can make with his cards. And obviously it is classless and mean-spirited too.
Usually that's true but this was a Premier League thing where a) Frankenberger giving Timoshenko a bunch of chips affected the other players much more than it usually would and b) players are encouraged to ham it up for "drama".
This thread is hilarious. Every player who's been on TV has played some head-smack–worthy hands. That doesn't make them bad players, it usually makes them very good players who have made a couple of mistakes.
In every interview he seems like a nice guy and a thoughtful poker player, and he's obviously doing really well right now. Not sure why we can't be happy for him. My only beef is that whenever I hear his name, I have some weird brain-lock where I can't remember who he is, getting lost on the Frankenberger-Reinkemeier-Rettenmaier continuum. What a jerk.
You do realize this makes no sense, right? A person's poker skill isn't weighted against their starting advantage. If Phil Ivey started with a 100k role it wouldn't make him "worse" than if he started with a 10k role. He makes the decisions he makes while playing poker which yields him an average profit. That's it. Maybe Andy not starting from scratch takes out some of the romance of poker, but oh well, guess he's not a very romantic dude.
My point is..
He is playing live poker over a small sample size and that sample size is at the highest level and he can afford it unlike most due to his past profession where he made a lot of money.
If he has played 100 tournaments in the last 2 years then he could be just running like god and unlike some he jumped in at the deep end therefore he run like god looks great because he winning big money and higher prestigious tournaments.
Therefore he could just be a business man on a heater,maybe not but from his plays that iv seen and everyone else have seen he doesnt seem to be that good so his wins look like run good.
Overall,im saying is that when you are guna run good (if you seem to be a bad player) it may aswell be at the highest level like andy.
I have a higher respect for someone who plays unbelievably(Ivey,durrr,hellmuth.. and most online players) ,have built it up from nothing and have the results to show than someone who started at the top,seems to play bad from what we have seen, and has ran good and won over such a small sample
Out of his 21 live cashes 11 have been in the top 8
Has Two WSOP bracelets
Has One WPT Title
Has Over 2.5 million in earnings
and yet still I can't get over that QQ fold + the response about it
the darkest of all black swans?
Best post here and it's ignored. Is anyone going to argue this is close to a normal distribution in 21 live cashes? Most in fairly large fields. The guy has finished in the top 8 in over half of his cashes with 3 wins in major tournaments. This isn't just running good its nearly inconceivably lucky. I'm not arguing Frankenberger isn't a smart guy who has some decent instincts (and some flaws). But if he ran average in his cashes no one would know him from Saar Wilf.
He is playing live poker over a small sample size and that sample size is at the highest level and he can afford it unlike most due to his past profession where he made a lot of money.
If he has played 100 tournaments in the last 2 years then he could be just running like god and unlike some he jumped in at the deep end therefore he run like god looks great because he winning big money and higher prestigious tournaments.
Therefore he could just be a business man on a heater,maybe not but from his plays that iv seen and everyone else have seen he doesnt seem to be that good so his wins look like run good.
Overall,im saying is that when you are guna run good (if you seem to be a bad player) it may aswell be at the highest level like andy.
I have a higher respect for someone who plays unbelievably(Ivey,durrr,hellmuth.. and most online players) ,have built it up from nothing and have the results to show than someone who started at the top,seems to play bad from what we have seen, and has ran good and won over such a small sample
OK fine, just pointing out your logic is fallacious.
BTW you could say that about anybody over most samples. 250k hands of cash is going to be heavily affected by variance. I have no opinion on Andy Frankenberger and without more information it's hard for some random NVGer to make an educated guess about his level of skill.
Had a brief conversation with Andy after both he and Phil won their bracelets. He came by the stage (presumably to congratulate Phil or to show off his own bracelet ) and my friend asked him what he was thinking when Ivey shoved on the final hand. He said "I was getting it in no doubt". No arguing that. Was very friendly and shook our hands. You can argue about whether his unorthodox style is +ev, but there is no questioning his results and the fact he is intelligent and a class act.
I may have missed one or two earlier posts but im not saying he is not a pro.
Im just saying that he didnt start from scratch in poker so it takes a little shine off how good he is.
Andy Frankenberger is not a pro?...
oh.
You mean like: Vietnam was not a war.
As in completely absurd semantical BS.
Gotcha
Wins millions in a multitude of venues..
Has multiple WSOP bracelets..
Conducts himself with class..
Was WPT player of the year..
Beat Ivey HU by pwning him..
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) and my friend asked him what he was thinking when Ivey shoved on the final hand. He said "I was getting it in no doubt". No arguing that. Was very friendly and shook our hands. You can argue about whether his unorthodox style is +ev, but there is no questioning his results and the fact he is intelligent and a class act.
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