Condescension + idiotic histrionics is a bad look.

The idea of a rule that prevents people who have pieces of each other or are romantically involved from playing in the same poker tournament is laughable on its face, if for no other reason than there's absolutely no way to enforce such a rule. If you think people are going to freely disclose financial conflicts of interest in order to play a poker tournament, you're insane.

As to the whole issue of softplaying, it's a weird, grey area. When does playing cautious poker stop and softplaying begin? When is talk during a hand an attempt to get an edge and when is it collusion? While I'm sure it's happening, I would suggest that not every weird line or conversation - even between friends - is a signal of collusion.

And also keep in mind that unless you're in a big televised event or at a streamed final table, how are you going to know with any degree of certainty that shenanigans are afoot?

Ok, and if they register the main event together, and they're moved to the same table, are they lucky they get the increased edge? So, are they allowed to get lucky in a tournament, in a way that someone without a significant other, never will?

Seems unfair. They shouldn't be at the same table, and if they care about integrity, they shouldn't want to be

How much increased edge do you honestly think two people have on a random Day 2 table in the WSOPME?

How is the issue different if the players are good friends? Brothers? Father/son? Is being on the table with a good friend unfair to someone who has no friends? Should no one be able to reg a tourney their mom is playing b/c my mom is dead and therefore I can never get that "edge?"

And they get lucky in other ways that people without significant others never will, amirite?

Seriously, take a step back, and realize that your point in all of this is that these two people decided to spend $10,000 to enter a 200-300 person tournament, because their "plan" was to both make the final table and cheat. THEN, once they hit the <1% chance of both making the final table, the next part of their plan was to offer a fair chop 3 handed, when the possibility of maximizing that edge was highest.

One of these three things MUST be true:
1) They had no intention to cheat, and tried to be as transparent and fair as possible
2) They had an intention to cheat, but no edge is possible for them to gain 3 handed, so their chop offer is meaningless
3) They had an intention to cheat, but offered to sacrifice 5 figures in EV because reasons.

4) they had no intention to cheat but ended up cheating

Yea, clearly if you don't blast in JJ on a 40+BB stack while a 15BB shortstack is still among the final three players, then you are obviously soft playing and colluding...........

Why would you even comment if you don't understand what happened?

They both made a final table in Montreal in the spring, but neither made the Top 5. Guess they just didn't cheat as well then?

Somehow that event didn't inspire people to post rules like "you can't register a tournament if someone else whose middle name you know is already in the tournament."

I go to the casino with my brother all the time to play cash and typically get seated wherever a seat is open and sometimes that may mean were on the same table (albeit 8 or 9 handed). It's pretty obvious we came together (And may be matching beers/shots whatever and calling each other by name) so everyone knows and often others around the room are doing the same thing, arriving with a buddy/family member.

Is this unethical/should we be sure to never be seated together? (serious question)

This is generally fine as long as you aren't deliberately colluding. This is a much different situation than the OP, for three reasons:

1.) You presumably don't share a direct financial incentive with your brother.
2.) It's a cash game, not a tournament, so how you play heads-up against him will rarely affect the equity of other players
3.) I'm assuming you and your brother aren't high-stakes professionals

Much different situation for sure but had me thinking more and more as to when the line gets blurry/what expectation other players may have in terms of being forthcoming of any relationship.

It doesn't have anything to do with women's empowerment. It has to do with my strictly anecdotal evidence that most women I encounter in the poker room are not there alone.

Is this true across the board? No. Do women come alone? Yes. Do very many women come and play alone?

Trying to make nit based rules about couples not playing in tournaments together is going further reduce your player pool of both women and casual players. Stop being a nit - studies have shown it is a leading cause of busto

LOL, so you would support banning couples from entering the WSOP Main Event.
Has to be one of the most stupid opinions I've ever heard.

No they just can't get 1st and 2nd. What's so bad about if they both make it, the shorter stack's chips goes to the significant other, and the shorter stack gets 9th place. Short stack gets a Milly for the main event basically, and increases the equity for their significant other.

And if they do reach the final table, we won't have to watch obvious collusion go on and explain to amateurs, "well see, that's part of the game." Most likely this rule won't come up that often at all. But if this happened at the Main event, where a team won 1st and 2nd, everyone watching would probably be disgusted like me.

And whoever said women aren't playing alone, then they're cheating. They should be studying ranges and practicing as much as possible, along with other things, rather than looking for a man to team up with. Women don't get good at poker by ****ing men, they get good like the rest of us. Studying, or experience IMO.

People saying you can't stop this because everyone does it, is crazy. " I do this with my 3 friends and 2 guys I back all the time, so they should be allowed to too." Like WTF?

This is a blatantly obvious spot that needs to be fixed, and actually could imo. COUPLES SHOULD NOT WANT TO PLAY AT THE SAME TABLE TO GAIN AN EDGE FROM THEM PLAYING TOGETHER, THAT'S CHEATING. CHEATERS ARE HIDING, COUPLES ARE ON TWITTER PROMOTING THEIR HAPPINESS. ARE THEY COUPLES OR ARE THEY CHEATING?

Backing groups are not 100% colluding if they get to the final table. Brothers aren't. Friends aren't. Couples imo, are much closer to colluding near 100%. Name me a couple that isn't?


This is a specific spot, that if you watch the full stream, most agree, they never want to see happen again.

Why not see what what can be done about enforcing existing reasonable rules that prohibit colluding (although it likely would not be easy and would require judgment calls) rather than trying to come up with crazy new rules that (i) prohibit people who have too close a relationship from playing in the same tournament (including what before the advent of this rule were 6,000+ people tournaments) or (ii) provide that once the final table is reached we identify the people who are too closely related to one another and only allow 1 person from each such group to continue playing while the other person(s) automatically get 9th, 8th, etc.?

What was wsop supposed to do when Doyle and Todd Brunson were at the same table in 10k deuce and then both made the final table?

2011 WSOP Main Event - bf/gf David Sands and Erika Moutinho both finished top 30 of almost 7000 entries, in fact were seated side by side at the main feature table with 41 players remaining. I'd suggest someone other than Erika could have been moved to Doc's table.

Two players spotted kissing - https://www.pokernews.com/tours/wsop...ost.194588.htm

Got an Ace, I shove baby - https://www.pokernews.com/tours/wsop...ost.194598.htm

Have a walk honey - https://www.pokernews.com/tours/wsop...ost.194611.htm

I'd expect Doyle and Todd to be professional and not soft play each other. If they did, then a serious penalty is warranted. Someone lost 150k in equity, in this one tournament, in an obviously sabotaged game 3 handed.

Think about if a couple made the final 10 in the main and event and combined chips. Amazing accomplishment. Think of if they made it and they did what happened here. It would be a scandal

Any honest couple should want this, rather than "Their turn" at getting an unfair advantage.

theman - serious question, do you think you are affected by bitterness of being single?

Because it seems completely absurd to think that best friends and brothers and fathers/sons can all be trusted to be up and up but couples, even if just boyfriend/girlfriend cannot.

And your proposed solution also sets up tremendously bad situations. Say my fiancee is a world class player and I'm a decent reg. We get to the FT bubble of the ME, and I'm 3rd in chips and she's 4th. I can dump just a little chips to her to ensure I make it also, and then once we combine, she gets all of my chips, and jumps from 3rd place to dominant chip leader. That's fair to the rest of the players at the table? That's a bigger advantage than anything that happened at the V by a long shot.

If it's such a huge and insurmountable advantage, why did neither of them make the top 6 in the FT they both made in Montreal? You act like they are superusing rather than simply having a pretty empty bluff range.

If they planned to steal equity from Kahle, why did they offer him a fair chop? Also how did Kahle lose 150k in equity? He made $120k, I'm curious the calculations you made that ever had him with $270k in equity.

You have no logic in your posts, I would look into that as the source of busto rather than getting cheated by couples.

Yea. No reason to have a different no entry allowed or not allowed to get higher than 9th rule for "couples." Just do the same thing (same penalty for soft play/collusion/etc.).

Serious answer, I could possibly be upset, that I'm single. That is absolutely, a possibility. I'm not really looking for a relationship at the moment, got some issues I'm working on, but if you buy me some pussy, we can find out and see if that's the case.

But in reality, anyone justifying that they should continue to be allowed this "Edge", is justifying it by saying other people do it. That's like saying we shouldn't give speeding tickets, because people are drunk driving.

This is a very obvious problem, that should never be justified, with "other people are doing it". The people, good people as some have mentioned, should want, the integrity of the game, to be upheld. And as a couple, in a relationship, you are supposed to be the yin and yang. The right people. The good of the world. You're supposed to want this, not wait for your turn to cheat. I can't see how it would anyone could look at it any other way. We can't stop all cheating tomorrow, but we can surely, at least try to start with this.

By justifying it, you are either saying that everyone is cheating, and they should get their opportunity too, or you're saying that everyone should get a girlfriend and link up. And if that's the case, any female reading this, PM me, and I will increase your roi, no matter what. I think giving a lesson to women to get them in the game is better, but if you can't beat em, **** it

And in MMA if you miss weight you forfeit a portion of the prize pool. Some kind of rule could be implemented like this. For people saying how would you enforce this, the same way you enforce not betting the nuts on the river. You wait for it to happen, and then when it does, you do the best you can.

Again, these people are supposed to be a couple. A couple, an honest couple that is, should want exactly what I'm talking about. If people are entering the tournaments with the intention to collude, they are entering for the wrong reasons, and that will never make them better at poker. It will make them do better tho, at the expense of the other entries

Hey and why didn't they get 1st and 2nd in Montreal? Because they got 6th and 7th. They said next time tho. And after entering 30 of the same tournaments together, they got it. They got it.

And they only offered a chop, BECAUSE THEY WERE GOING TO COLLUDE. Alex foxen is not chopping 3 handed w 40 bigs. Unless you're ****ing him I guess

And one last main point. Where’s the news coverage? Where’s the media hype? Why have they both gone silent on Twitter ? If this was an accomplishment, it should be promoted. Everybody knows it wasn’t , and knows it was cheating, so no one is promoting this.

Do we want the future where we hide results of couples, or make rules that allow them to compete in the same tourney, and not affect the other players at the table? In the main event this could be huge. “ Bob and Sandra are neck and neck with twelve left. Who will have the shorter stack when we get to 9 handed?”

It would be awesome for the news media. And for the good people who don’t wanna break the rules of a game they want to learn, they’d be turned off heavily if they saw cheating at the final table. It would attract scumbags looking to cheat, and turn off new players who want to play by the rules and beat the game legitamiyely. Which is the opposite of what we all want in poker. Am I wrong?

I'm not actually suggesting a new rule. The idea of inventing rule where couples combine stacks if they end up at the same table sounds absurd.

I'm merely suggesting that as general practice, people playing on a shared bankroll should avoid entering the same tournament.

I don't understand why Foxen and Bicknell needed to enter the same 150-player tournament when there are dozens of different tournaments being spread in Vegas every day around this time.

It really isn't that unlikely that two players in a 150-player tournament will end up at the same table at some point, and this likelihood increases as the money at stake increases over the course of the tournament. This is evidenced by the fact that both them apparently made another final table together very recently!

The tournament needed over 200 runners just to make its guarantee, so pretty disingenuous for you to imply they decided to "enter a 150 person tourney", when this tourney had the best structure and best prize pool of any tourney in Vegas that day.

How do you know they are on a shared bankroll? Do you think everyone that is boyfriend/girlfriend shares a roll? They each have over $2M in live cashes, maybe they are each on their own roll?

I don't understand why this is confusing to you.

They probably tried to find the best tournament available. I would assume it is easier to ride together, talk to each other on breaks, eat together etc. when they play the same tournament.

People in tournaments swap action all the time. This is way more concerning than a couple in a personal relationship. I don't see a more fair way to handle this than by offering the chop.