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High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables

10-12-2023 , 04:51 AM
https://vxtwitter.com/MarkRoovers/st...5d3y8zK7Q&s=19

New admin fee that was silently added to GG MTTs has been silently increased.

No format is safe and edges across the board will become smaller and smaller to the point where everyone is passing money around and GG is getting richer and richer.
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10-12-2023 , 07:07 AM
GG feel they need more money.

This could end with more traffic on sites not feeling that so much.

Then fewer players needed on GG, less to admin.

I'd like to see what it costs to play on different sites, across the stakes. If I maybe get back into real money online, even microstakes, I'll choose from the cheaper side. Not tied up to a brand, not functioning that way. At the moment Stars have things going for them, nothing says that's eternal. What kind of a player would I be if it was?

Last edited by plaaynde; 10-12-2023 at 07:26 AM.
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10-12-2023 , 07:07 AM
Taking a 1% fee isn't the end of the world on the surface. I think any reg with a meaningful winrate will hardly notice it. Obviously with greater volume the share of cashes having 1% extorted will accumulate over time.

The admin fee cuts into GTD. This means that if the GTD is exactly accumulated, then 1% of the prizepool is gone. So a 1m GTD = a 990k prizepool. This in itself is questionable. Again neglectable.

I think if you look at the reg tournaments that have been renamed. F.x the 320GG bounty, you can see there is not an admin fee. However, the 215$ sunday blastoff that tends to be a 215$ with 10~20k GTD has a boosted GTD to 40k, but a 1% admin fee. Rather inconsistent (maybe they didn't change their tournament planner manually yet.)

However, imagine the poker economy as a whole. Then imagine if the entire economy could be slushed through 1 tournament. This premise is in reality not possible, but it is still representitative enough to showcase just how bad admin fees are.


The real issue is that this causes an overall leakage of the poker economy. So 1% of the economy vanishes for every circulation.

Now imagine with 1% and rake with rakeback. Again the 2,5% WSOP and/or with rakeback. I will post below a simple EXCEL spreadsheet to show just how bad it is.

I chose to elect the rake with rakeback to be approx 1% since you get maximum 60% RB on GG and rake is approx 1/20 of the buyin with 60% rb, so 1/50 of the buyin ~ 2% of the buyin is raked. Given the fact that sometimes the GTD isn't reached, or just barely reached - Then the rake is in reality a bit lower. So to simplify I elected 1%. This could be anywhere from 0-2%, or negative if its like party pokers satties with perma overlay. For GG's instance I guess 1-2% but I cannot say with certainty.






First instance with 1% admin fee. After the entire economy has slushed through 50 circulations, the economy would shrink by 40% to 60% of start value.
With 1% admin fee & rake the poker economy would shrink 64% down to 36% of its original value.
2,5% admin fee the economy shrinks 72% to 28% of its original value.
2,5% admin fee + rake it shrinks 83% to 17% of its original value.

This is in just 50 circulations. At what speed the poker economy in actuality circulates and how big the leakage is, is not known. Realit does not align with the premise.
I do however think that the demonstrated example shows how the introduction of an admin fee accelerates the hollowing of the poker economy.

While I think strong players with 30%+ winrate will not necessarily be of the impression that 1% admin fee will carve out their winrate. I think in the long run the poker economy would basically carve out itself and winrates will decline as weaker players exit the pool.

The only way to outdo this is injecting the poker economy with cash from outside. I personally think GG poker is quite good at injecting the poker economy with cash from new sources. This is something I will say they do much better than PS, PP. (I dont know about ACR, I think ACR is also doing a good job.)



The question on how to create a sustainable eco system.
I'm not sure. I think a lot of succesful poker pros have gone out of the game and pursued further business interest (Tony G etc.) Then injected the poker economy again later on.

What about the greed of casinos? I think the antagonizing view that any profiteers is evil is also not the solution to the problem. GG is on one hand doing more and more to carve out and drain the poker economy with their fees, their rake etc. while on the other hand also being the biggest contributor to injections into the poker economy. I think their work and advancement in poker has been great for the games the past 2 years (for my personal part.)





I think on an unrelated note. Who are these busto stakes grinders on 2+2 moaning that HS pros are not looking out for them? What did you do to deserve their considerations? I mean you cannot even beat 2/5, then why are entitled to anything. The poker universe is still so far optimal play, that significant edges can be found. Your failure to beat these stakes gives you no claim to demand larger stakes players fight your fight.
Am I shilling for HS pros? No I'm not a cash game player, MTT only. Reading some of these braindead "contributions" by busto stake players is just absurd. I can tell why you're not beating midstakes, your head is convoluted and filled with stupid egalitarian entitlement feelings. There is no logic to be found.
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10-12-2023 , 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dak-Dakker-Daksten
I think on an unrelated note. Who are these busto stakes grinders on 2+2 moaning that HS pros are not looking out for them? What did you do to deserve their considerations? I mean you cannot even beat 2/5, then why are entitled to anything. The poker universe is still so far optimal play, that significant edges can be found. Your failure to beat these stakes gives you no claim to demand larger stakes players fight your fight.
Am I shilling for HS pros? No I'm not a cash game player, MTT only. Reading some of these braindead "contributions" by busto stake players is just absurd. I can tell why you're not beating midstakes, your head is convoluted and filled with stupid egalitarian entitlement feelings. There is no logic to be found.
This is not correct. People are entitled to losing less to the middle man.

Cuts the overall possible losses
High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables Quote
10-12-2023 , 08:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dak-Dakker-Daksten
The only way to outdo this is injecting the poker economy with cash from outside. I personally think GG poker is quite good at injecting the poker economy with cash from new sources. This is something I will say they do much better than PS, PP. (I dont know about ACR, I think ACR is also doing a good job.)



The question on how to create a sustainable eco system.
I'm not sure. I think a lot of succesful poker pros have gone out of the game and pursued further business interest (Tony G etc.) Then injected the poker economy again later on.

What about the greed of casinos? I think the antagonizing view that any profiteers is evil is also not the solution to the problem. GG is on one hand doing more and more to carve out and drain the poker economy with their fees, their rake etc. while on the other hand also being the biggest contributor to injections into the poker economy. I think their work and advancement in poker has been great for the games the past 2 years (for my personal part.)
Thanks for your detailed post very insightful. I should clarify that by no means are we blind to the facts of what GG has done for poker in the past years. Undoubtedly they are doing a lot of things significantly better than the competitors. This is also why we always wanted to work with GG and come to a solution which both parties can be happy with. We believe the poker experience can be improved at HS which in turn will also end with GG attracting more players.

Our main argument is (and this was also talked about with Elky) that HS cash for a pokersite is more valuable than just the raw rake it generates. We don’t doubt that GG is investing a lot of money into getting these games up and running. This was also their main argument for doubling the NL rake overnight because they claimed the game would lose money otherwise. GG is able to make money from HS cash in a lot of different ways.

Firstly, an active lobby at the highest stakes is something people enjoy to watch. As soon as a 100/200 or higher game starts running you will see 100 people observing the table. These people then share the action on social media which gets the word out about GG and eventually brings in new players.

Secondly, VIPs are incredibly valuable for GG not only because they get games running which generate rake, but also because these are the players that are significantly more likely to start gambling in their casino. If even 10% of VIPs that get onto GG because they were being comped a lot to play HS cash start playing some blackjack on the side the value of having frequently running HS cash tables increases drastically. While GG claims that they are poker first and their casino isn’t being marketed at all we find this hard to believe as every table on the site always has a big button in the bottom left of the screen to open the casino. They are also continuously y investing money into getting their own branded casino games onto their platform. In fact, just this month in their most recent update they introduced GG branded blackjack. Previously there was only Playtech blackjack which we can imagine get a cut off of the revenue. The bet limit at the Playtech games is 250$, whereas at the GG branded one you can bet up to 10000$ a hand . Clearly the casino is incredibly valuable to them.

This is precisely why HS cashgames are considered a loss leader for poker sites. We believe GG isn’t fairly evaluating the worth of having these games running.

A nice comparison would be if Bally’s does a value calculation of having WSOP run at their casino. I don’t doubt that running WSOP is incredibly expensive and that if you weigh all the costs to the raw rake the MTTs generate I wouldn’t be surprised if the entire event is breaking even or even making a loss. However, Bally’s is more than happy to host the WSOP because they know having all these people come to their casino to: stay in their rooms, eat at their restaurants and last but not least gamble at their casino is way more valuable to them as a business.
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10-12-2023 , 08:09 AM
I can tell why you're not beating midstakes, your head is convoluted and filled with stupid egalitarian entitlement feelings. There is no logic to be found.
LOL This is why ppl who don't play as a job or lower stakes for fun dislike alot of poker players

Might want to go back and read the OPs entitlement in feeling he should win more than NLH players at the same stake or their entitlement to better games when they could just play lower and actually put in more than 150k hands like mentioned.

This has nothing to do with ppl beating games and everything to do with bs excuses that it's good for everyone if we support HS boycotts.

The latest post trying to get MTT players on their side is so transparent it's laughable.
Just a side note lol. On stars and GG I have double digit BB/100 on PLO so your can't beat the game theory is nonsense. We all aren't only thinking about our own pockets.
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10-12-2023 , 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dak-Dakker-Daksten
I think on an unrelated note. Who are these busto stakes grinders on 2+2 moaning that HS pros are not looking out for them? What did you do to deserve their considerations? I mean you cannot even beat 2/5, then why are entitled to anything. The poker universe is still so far optimal play, that significant edges can be found. Your failure to beat these stakes gives you no claim to demand larger stakes players fight your fight.
Am I shilling for HS pros? No I'm not a cash game player, MTT only. Reading some of these braindead "contributions" by busto stake players is just absurd. I can tell why you're not beating midstakes, your head is convoluted and filled with stupid egalitarian entitlement feelings. There is no logic to be found.
Wow, just wow at the misguided, egotistical post this is. You win the asshat of the day award. I can't believe I have to support idiots like you in the real world. I can guarantee you take write-offs you shouldn't, don't report all of your income, and/or cheat on your taxes in some way. Any gambler that says they don't is straight up lying. You may not now, but you certainly have in the past. Here is a hint, get a real job in the real world and stop parasitizing off of successful business men like me that actually contribute to society, provide jobs to hard working people, insurance to their families, fund several charitable events, etc.

The nerve of you losers that gamble for a living and then have this type of thought process is astounding, like you are entitled to anything because you are too lazy or stupid to be successful in the real world. Your failure to be able to do anything other then be a professional gambler has your head filled with entitlement feelings that you actually matter in the real world. Grow up. Your a MTT professional ffs .

BTW - I don't mean all of this and this does not apply to a lot of pros out there as I have plenty of friends that still play for a living and I used to as well 20 yeas ago. But I am really getting tired of hearing this attitude towards rec and casual players. If these brain dead morons they speak of that still can't beat 2/5 did not exist, YOU WOULD NOT EXIST, period. Ungrateful morons.
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10-12-2023 , 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace upmy Slv
Wow, just wow at the misguided, egotistical post this is. You win the asshat of the day award. I can't believe I have to support idiots like you in the real world. I can guarantee you take write-offs you shouldn't, don't report all of your income, and/or cheat on your taxes in some way. Any gambler that says they don't is straight up lying. You may not now, but you certainly have in the past. Here is a hint, get a real job in the real world and stop parasitizing off of successful business men like me that actually contribute to society, provide jobs to hard working people, insurance to their families, fund several charitable events, etc.

The nerve of you losers that gamble for a living and then have this type of thought process is astounding, like you are entitled to anything because you are too lazy or stupid to be successful in the real world. Your failure to be able to do anything other then be a professional gambler has your head filled with entitlement feelings that you actually matter in the real world. Grow up. Your a MTT professional ffs .

BTW - I don't mean all of this and this does not apply to a lot of pros out there as I have plenty of friends that still play for a living and I used to as well 20 yeas ago. But I am really getting tired of hearing this attitude towards rec and casual players. If these brain dead morons they speak of that still can't beat 2/5 did not exist, YOU WOULD NOT EXIST, period. Ungrateful morons.
Yes some pros are **** humans and contribute nothing to society, but if you're a losing poker player and expect winning poker players to subsidize your losses that sure sounds like entitlement to me. Also I assume HS winners are intelligent people and could be successful at other things in life. They just choose to play poker. Maybe they love the game maybe they hate the idea of working a 9 to 5. Believe it or not most of us don't have the business acumen to run a company but that doesn't mean poker players would fail in the outside world if the chose to be a part of it. Surely someone like Stephen11222 has the smarts to hold down a decent job if had chosen that path.

Last edited by dude45; 10-12-2023 at 07:56 PM.
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10-12-2023 , 08:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PLOUnionRep;5829555

This is precisely why HS cashgames are considered a loss leader for poker sites. We believe GG isnít fairly evaluating the worth of having these games running.

A nice comparison would be if Ballyís does a value calculation of having WSOP run at their casino. I donít doubt that running WSOP is incredibly expensive and that if you weigh all the costs to the raw rake the MTTs generate I wouldnít be surprised if the entire event is breaking even or even making a loss. However, Ballyís is more than happy to host the WSOP because they know having all these people come to their casino to: stay in their rooms, eat at their restaurants and last but not least [B
gamble at their casino[/B] is way more valuable to them as a business.
And GG has far more accurate information than you do on how traffic on their site operates and believes they are correctly evaluating the value. It is interesting how you listed the value you felt GG should give you for what you bring to the site but completely ignored the value GG gives you by their marketing to bring in the fish you eat. Since you are not even trying to help the lower stakes players I hope everyone you do not intend to help recognizes they should not help you. And in the long run if HS players do not pay does anyone feel GG will just eat the loss or raise costs that effect the smaller players? Hope you fail.
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10-21-2023 , 03:43 PM
Any progress?
High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables Quote
10-22-2023 , 10:35 PM
Who honestly gives two ****s about high stakes p l o community? Poker's death needs to be hastened. There is no real community just a bunch of hustlers and cheats. with a few honest folks. Nobody gives a ****
High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables Quote
10-23-2023 , 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbnutlow
Who honestly gives two ****s about high stakes p l o community? Poker's death needs to be hastened. There is no real community just a bunch of hustlers and cheats. with a few honest folks. Nobody gives a ****
How dare you...
High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables Quote
10-23-2023 , 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbnutlow
Who honestly gives two ****s about high stakes p l o community? Poker's death needs to be hastened. There is no real community just a bunch of hustlers and cheats. with a few honest folks. Nobody gives a ****
Cuanto perdiste?
High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables Quote
10-23-2023 , 11:45 AM
how about we just dont ever go back to playing ggpoker no matter what
High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables Quote
10-23-2023 , 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbnutlow
Who honestly gives two ****s about high stakes p l o community? Poker's death needs to be hastened. There is no real community just a bunch of hustlers and cheats. with a few honest folks. Nobody gives a ****
Written like someone who gets felted on the regular, lol.
High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables Quote
10-23-2023 , 06:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by H.O.R.S.E.
how about we just dont ever go back to playing ggpoker no matter what
ding ding ding, we've got a winner

not sarcastic

Last edited by Slugant; 10-23-2023 at 06:25 PM. Reason: not sarcastic
High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables Quote
10-24-2023 , 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slugant
ding ding ding, we've got a winner

not sarcastic
Not one of your posts during the NL boycott was about hating on GG or their rake, moreso talking about your own situation and never once mentioning that the NL players are being punished for choosing to play on their site in the first place. You are 100% trolling or at least trying to disrupt what is going on here and should be disregarded as such from hereon.

Or, I dunno. What changed? Who hurt you?
High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables Quote
10-24-2023 , 07:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by z0mgtiltz
Not one of your posts during the NL boycott was about hating on GG or their rake, moreso talking about your own situation and never once mentioning that the NL players are being punished for choosing to play on their site in the first place. You are 100% trolling or at least trying to disrupt what is going on here and should be disregarded as such from hereon.

Or, I dunno. What changed? Who hurt you?
read again and also this thread. I made a very clear distinction between the two boycotts. PLO players knew from the get-go the rake they are paying. NLHE rake was almost doubled overnight and i get why players are upset with this, exactly how i put it in this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slugant
Very different situation imo. NLHE rake was almost doubled overnight and players protested that change. PLO players knew the rake they are boycotting beforehand.

That doesnt change fact that i strongly feel players who are knowingly and willingly playing on the site with the highest rake shouldnt be complaining about high rake so much. Nobody forces them to play on GG.

I can assure you Zero that i havent changed much and am not trolling, but i realize that my view isnt the view of HS players right now and thats totally OK. But that we disagree doesnt mean im trolling. Not hurt as well btw GL
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11-02-2023 , 01:18 PM
is this boycott still ongoing? just jungle, russians and whales in the games running?
High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables Quote
11-02-2023 , 08:05 PM
was anybody winning in these games ever(by ev not results)?

heard of several highstakes regs who went broke in the 5c games
High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables Quote
11-07-2023 , 06:41 AM
Is the strike still on? I see at least S Melhui, L van den Belt, Joshua McCully and R Alexandre playing 25/50 with one recreational at the moment.

Would be nice from the PLO union reprensative comment something here about the current status of the strike. Has any progress been made? Why are some guys playing, are they not part of the union or just don't care?
High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables Quote
11-11-2023 , 05:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TucoSalamanca
Is the strike still on? I see at least S Melhui, L van den Belt, Joshua McCully and R Alexandre playing 25/50 with one recreational at the moment.

Would be nice from the PLO union reprensative comment something here about the current status of the strike. Has any progress been made? Why are some guys playing, are they not part of the union or just don't care?
No, it clearly wasn't succesful.
High stakes PLO community boycotts GGPoker VIP Tables Quote

      
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