Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-11-2017, 03:36 PM   #126
betgo
banned
 
betgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Highest ROI 16/18 & 12/180 in 2011
Posts: 28,591
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Yeah, poker writer can't write and knows nothing about poker. This is the standard formula to get clicks, post trash about people. I am an acquaintance of Dani, and he is a strong high stakes player and is relatively cautious. It is easy to lose 20 BIs in PLO, particularly playing the best players HU.
betgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2017, 03:42 PM   #127
.isolated
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
.isolated's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Team J.A.M.M.A.T. <3
Posts: 12,984
Thumbs down Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Bet5BetFold View Post
Gossip:

casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving details which are not confirmed as true.

If the facts are correct then its not gossip is it? Im confused.
This is like writing an article about a famous person and including their correct birth date but then talking **** about them that they can't possibly know about. Yes, there's a fact or facts in there, and no that doesn't make it not gossip.
.isolated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2017, 04:05 PM   #128
Solari
journeyman
 
Solari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 290
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Berri and Dani have played a decent amount of hands together, if one is going to disregard Berri's profit as just variance then I guess you're going to do the same for the likes of Ben86's profit in the HU PLO days etc.???
Solari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2017, 05:18 PM   #129
2pairsof2s
adept
 
2pairsof2s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Cashier screen at Pokerstars
Posts: 758
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

It's really not unusual for a poker player to have a 30 or 40 buy-in downswing. I remember reading a paper about variance awhile back. (I tried to google it and couldn't find it, maybe someone else knows it?) The gist of it was 1 million Game theory optimal players playing 1 million random hands each. Think of it as 1 million Ivey, Jungleman, Hotz etc, whoever your idol is. The shocking part was the number of them that failed. Fully 40k were net losers, and several thousands suffered massive catastrophic losses, way more than 30 or 40 buy-ins. Think of that. Thousands of Phil Ivey, Fedor Hotz, Dani Stern losing everything, over and over. It's like if Motzart only every had a ukulele, and he gave up music because he couldn't tune it.
2pairsof2s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 05:21 AM   #130
betgo
banned
 
betgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Highest ROI 16/18 & 12/180 in 2011
Posts: 28,591
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

It may be libel to post a headline "losing bigger than Gus Hanson". I guess that site is willing to do anything to attract attention, even in a negative way. They must be pretty low budget, as they can't be paying their writers much. It would be fine to do an article on his losses, but stated in a more balanced way.
betgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 06:43 AM   #131
chuckamuck
journeyman
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 242
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quick question for the math wizzes about variance.... if 30-40 buyins is acceptable PLO variance between two heads-up beasts, is the same true for NLHE?

I remembered this quote from Dwan about the variance in his Jungleman match:
Quote:
Originally Posted by durrrr View Post
edit2: 30buyins? did people stop understanding variance recently? suddenly thats an unrecoverable sum?
I get that the prevailing view (eg, from Polk and others) is that Dwan was getting outclassed in the challenge.... but I'm wondering whether 30/40 BI is still a broadly acceptable swing for NLHE, over 20k hands?

Btw, it looks like Stern has played abt 10k hands this year... but it's not clear to me how many hands make up the 40BI diff between him and Berri Sweet...
chuckamuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 06:49 AM   #132
lioncub
centurion
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 175
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by betgo View Post
It may be libel to post a headline "losing bigger than Gus Hanson". I guess that site is willing to do anything to attract attention, even in a negative way. They must be pretty low budget, as they can't be paying their writers much. It would be fine to do an article on his losses, but stated in a more balanced way.
Having worked for a lot of different publications I can assure you that many of the people writing tabloid fodder get paid a lot more than the serious journalists. Not saying that's the case here of course just that whether you consider an article high-brow or low-brow, balanced or unbalanced, this is absolutely no reflection on how much the media owner is willing to pay for it. It depends what they want from you as a writer.

As for libel, I cannot imagine under what circumstances that would ever be an issue. I'm not defending the title, I've admitted to it's shortcomings already. I'm just saying it's nowhere near specific enough to call it libel, especially when you read the content. Dani is losing more (per hand) than Gus did at Full Tilt, he's also losing more than Gus this year. I didn't specify a timeline. The title maybe misleading but it's not inaccurate when taken in context, specifically the context explained in the article.
lioncub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 06:57 AM   #133
ForgotPasword
stranger
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 9
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

He should go back on strike against pokerstars imo
ForgotPasword is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 07:36 AM   #134
betgo
banned
 
betgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Highest ROI 16/18 & 12/180 in 2011
Posts: 28,591
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by lioncub View Post
Having worked for a lot of different publications I can assure you that many of the people writing tabloid fodder get paid a lot more than the serious journalists. Not saying that's the case here of course just that whether you consider an article high-brow or low-brow, balanced or unbalanced, this is absolutely no reflection on how much the media owner is willing to pay for it. It depends what they want from you as a writer.

As for libel, I cannot imagine under what circumstances that would ever be an issue. I'm not defending the title, I've admitted to it's shortcomings already. I'm just saying it's nowhere near specific enough to call it libel, especially when you read the content. Dani is losing more (per hand) than Gus did at Full Tilt, he's also losing more than Gus this year. I didn't specify a timeline. The title maybe misleading but it's not inaccurate when taken in context, specifically the context explained in the article.
I am sure that some people get paid really well for tabloid fodder. These specialized sites don't generate huge revenue and often hire college students and people from low cost of living countries at low rates. That publication has one article per virtual issue and the quality of the writing is poor.

It is pretty low to put a headline like that and then content to use technical issues to make sure it isn't legally libel.
betgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 07:50 AM   #135
X9s
banned
 
X9s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: contemplating
Posts: 66
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
Thanks for that X9s, your contribution and insight has been duly noted. 20+ posters can write whatever they like about the article using whatever language, I can't say 'humped'. Got it now. Good to know.
Let me try to further help clarify for any future writings.

i.e. Player A loses a bunch of buy-ins to Player B.

> Player A is getting humped really hard by Player B
or
> Over the most recent 20,000 hand sample size, Player A is down 22 buyins to Player B


Quote:
Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
I guess the $1.3 or $1.5million Stern has lost recently is just a scarily big number for me personally(when people start to talk about it as probably being down to variance, and it's not even close to leveling out).
It is important to understand that the "scary numbers" you speak of are somewhat irrelevant in the minds of those battling at high stakes. Instead these professionals think in terms of buyins/big blinds as their preferred units of measure as opposed to aggregate dollar amounts.


i.e. Poker player sits down with 50 chips at the poker table.

> poker player sits down with 50 chips and equates each chip to 1 steak dinner he could buy, or 10 chips = half his rent, etc.
or
> poker player sits down with 50 chips and equates it to 50 units which he is going to use that to win the most money possible by making the best decisions.

One of these mindsets will lead to higher +EV decisions and thus some disconnect will arise between those who can not grasp the difference. Best of luck.
X9s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 08:20 AM   #136
KiwiKiller
newbie
 
KiwiKiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 47
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Hey Lioncub, if you wanted to insult somebody's poker prowess wouldn't the GTO way to do so be to compare that person to Gus Hansen ???
KiwiKiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 08:21 AM   #137
Kenny S
adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,179
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solari View Post
Berri and Dani have played a decent amount of hands together, if one is going to disregard Berri's profit as just variance then I guess you're going to do the same for the likes of Ben86's profit in the HU PLO days etc.???
Nooooooo all players are in agreement, winning is based on skill....losing is based on variance.
Kenny S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 08:49 AM   #138
Lemon93PCTSure
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 308
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

isn't 1.5mill 15BIS if they played 50/100?
How's that even significant in plo lol
Lemon93PCTSure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 08:53 AM   #139
hedgecock
centurion
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 154
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by X9s View Post
Let me try to further help clarify for any future writings.

i.e. Player A loses a bunch of buy-ins to Player B.

> Player A is getting humped really hard by Player B
or
> Over the most recent 20,000 hand sample size, Player A is down 22 buyins to Player B




It is important to understand that the "scary numbers" you speak of are somewhat irrelevant in the minds of those battling at high stakes. Instead these professionals think in terms of buyins/big blinds as their preferred units of measure as opposed to aggregate dollar amounts.


i.e. Poker player sits down with 50 chips at the poker table.

> poker player sits down with 50 chips and equates each chip to 1 steak dinner he could buy, or 10 chips = half his rent, etc.
or
> poker player sits down with 50 chips and equates it to 50 units which he is going to use that to win the most money possible by making the best decisions.

One of these mindsets will lead to higher +EV decisions and thus some disconnect will arise between those who can not grasp the difference. Best of luck.
I get it XS9, and good analogy - the point I was making earlier (and I only used 'humped' in a quick post when I was pissed of, I wouldn't actually write that way for publication - although I also admit I didn't realise the HUPLO variance was so high.) is that regardless of how you look at it, it's a lot of money.

22 buy-ins down may be relatively little in HUPLO, but $1.3 million is a decent chunk of most players bankroll, even if they are backed and also rich themselves. I mean, Bill Perkins could lose a few mill and not even notice it. Isildur lost, what, $4 or 5mill very quickly back in the day with that Hastings stuff and was almost bust. So, for how long do you accept it's just variance before you pull the plug? I know, I know, it varies!
hedgecock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 08:59 AM   #140
hedgecock
centurion
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 154
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon93PCTSure View Post
isn't 1.5mill 15BIS if they played 50/100?
How's that even significant in plo lol
Only if they buy in for 1000BB and I thought my maths was bad!
hedgecock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 09:00 AM   #141
4Bet5BetFold
newbie
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 38
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon93PCTSure View Post
isn't 1.5mill 15BIS if they played 50/100?
How's that even significant in plo lol
15 buy ins at 50/100 would be $150,000 - 150 buy ins would be $1,500,000
4Bet5BetFold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 10:22 AM   #142
lioncub
centurion
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 175
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by betgo View Post
I am sure that some people get paid really well for tabloid fodder. These specialized sites don't generate huge revenue and often hire college students and people from low cost of living countries at low rates. That publication has one article per virtual issue and the quality of the writing is poor.

It is pretty low to put a headline like that and then content to use technical issues to make sure it isn't legally libel.
Not sure what publication you're talking about tbh. But ok, we'll leave it there.
lioncub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 11:17 AM   #143
MultiTabling
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,772
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Bet5BetFold View Post
15 buy ins at 50/100 would be $150,000 - 150 buy ins would be $1,500,000
Is losing 150 buy ins "just variance"? I wouldn't have thought so, even for a game as swingy as PLO.
MultiTabling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 11:38 AM   #144
4Bet5BetFold
newbie
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 38
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by MultiTabling View Post
Is losing 150 buy ins "just variance"? I wouldn't have thought so, even for a game as swingy as PLO.
Absolutely not. I was just pointing out that the $150,000 at 50/100 is variance but $1,500,000 probably isnt.
4Bet5BetFold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 11:54 AM   #145
upswinging
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 267
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

The number of buy ins lost is insignificant. The amount of $ lost is not. Playing for that kind of money in 2017 factoring the state of the games is straight up degen. Also I had to laugh at guys saying Dani is staked- I have no idea- but I think it's absurd to think anyone would stake Dani to play a person like BERRI.

Regardless, the article shouldn't have been posted. Such a waste of time and is not news worthy.
upswinging is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 12:38 PM   #146
hedgecock
centurion
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 154
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by upswinging View Post
The number of buy ins lost is insignificant. The amount of $ lost is not. Playing for that kind of money in 2017 factoring the state of the games is straight up degen. Also I had to laugh at guys saying Dani is staked- I have no idea- but I think it's absurd to think anyone would stake Dani to play a person like BERRI.

Regardless, the article shouldn't have been posted. Such a waste of time and is not news worthy.
You can't have it both ways. It's either significant money and not a great idea (which makes it newsworthy) or it isn't and it isn't.
hedgecock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 02:23 PM   #147
upswinging
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 267
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

lol what? It being a significant amount of money does not automatically make it news worthy. This is worse than tabloids. I can't believe you're being paid to write this garbage. If they had been playing multiple tables, for long, frequent sessions then ok I could behind it. But all you have is someone lost 1.5m, boohoo not news.
upswinging is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 02:44 PM   #148
joe_seboks_luck
grinder
 
joe_seboks_luck's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Crushing grapes
Posts: 471
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooozy View Post
How about you acknowledge that the title is clickbait and misleading?
Didn't he acknowledge that in the first paragraph of the article?
joe_seboks_luck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 03:57 PM   #149
lioncub
centurion
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 175
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by upswinging View Post
lol what? It being a significant amount of money does not automatically make it news worthy. This is worse than tabloids. I can't believe you're being paid to write this garbage. If they had been playing multiple tables, for long, frequent sessions then ok I could behind it. But all you have is someone lost 1.5m, boohoo not news.
Once again, the person you're arguing with didn't write it.

It's totally fair enough if you didn't like it. We publish 3-4 articles a day, some are strong, some not so strong.

I would say that in this online highstakes climate losing $1.5m in a relatively short space of time is quite unusual, certainly for a player who only plays one game.

Also, BERRI SWEET and supernova9 DO play multiple tables for long, frequent sessions.

At the end of the day though, it was just one small article I did to showcase our functionality and it was a bit clickbaity. I must've written several thousand HSDB articles over the years so if I get flamed by a few people for one of them I can live with that.

Perhaps you'll prefer the delightfully uplifting piece I wrote this afternoon on Charlie Carrel misclicking into a $1k PLO8 SCOOP event and going on to win it?
lioncub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 04:28 PM   #150
Kenny S
adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,179
Re: High Stakes Database trashes Dani Stern

Quote:
Originally Posted by lioncub View Post

Perhaps you'll prefer the delightfully uplifting piece I wrote this afternoon on Charlie Carrel misclicking into a $1k PLO8 SCOOP event and going on to win it?
I would but this headline could mean a min cash over there. "Charlie Carrel Accidentally Registers for $1k PLO8 SCOOP Event & Wins"
Kenny S is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online