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Old Yesterday, 01:10 PM   #376
rickroll
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Re: Hellmuth vs. Negreanu "High Stakes Duel 2" Confirmed

you think it's possible they are incentivized to draw it out, i don't otherwise see how their short stack play could be so bad
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Old Yesterday, 02:08 PM   #377
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Re: Hellmuth vs. Negreanu "High Stakes Duel 2" Confirmed

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Originally Posted by deuceblocker View Post
I watched the last hour of it and made some notes on preflop play that seemed the most questionable. I thought Hellmuth played better than Negreanu, certainly preflop.

Perhaps these are some advanced small ball adjustments to standard play. Pretty much every SNG and MTTSNG reg shoves in most of these spots. Maybe that is just an adaptation to multitabling and the limps and checks are better?

11xBB 5:26. H open limps with J4o, N checks with A3s. This is an error. N should shove.

11.5xBB 5:27 N open limps Kqs. This is a standard shove and a mistake.

12xBB 5:31. H raises to 2.25xBB with 22. This is a shove and the raise is bad with this hand, which plays poorly postflop short stacked and H would have a difficult decision if N shoved.

7.5BB 5:35 H open limps Q3o. This is a standard shove. N checks Qts. N should shove and this is a blunder.

7BB 5:39 N open limps A3o awful

11xBB 5:40 H limps T9o an N checks A2. Standard shove with an ace.

6xBB 5:43 H limps Q8o and N checks A4o. Easy shove for both players. Terrible check with the ace.

5xBB 5:49 N open limps Q9o

5xBB 5:50 H open limps J4s, N shoves with JJ and H folds. Standard shove with J4s.

8xBB 6:04. N open shoves 88 and H folds QJs. Standard call, but fold is not so terrible as nitty as N is playing.

7.5xBB H limps 99, N shoves 76s, and H calls. The trap with 99 is nonstandard that short, and shoving is better. H needs to be deeper or have a stronger hand (probably KK+) to trap this shallow. Trapping is bad particularly because N has been very passive preflop. N's shove is OK. Final hand.
Although the short stack play was shockingly bad from both players, some of these hands you identify as mistakes are 100% correct in GTO.

For example:
"11.5xBB 5:27 N open limps Kqs" - This is mostly a limp, never shove.
"7.5BB 5:35 H open limps Q3o" - This is mostly a limp.
"7.5xBB H limps 99" - This is mostly a limp.
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Old Yesterday, 02:11 PM   #378
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Re: Hellmuth vs. Negreanu "High Stakes Duel 2" Confirmed

I, for one, am mostly impressed with Hellmuth’s flawless play. I especially admire how calm he remained after he got dangerously short. He remained poised and adroitly came back and crushed DNeg’s soul. I would never , I repeat never, voluntarily play Hellmuth heads up. I respect money too much.
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Old Yesterday, 02:22 PM   #379
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Re: Hellmuth vs. Negreanu "High Stakes Duel 2" Confirmed

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Originally Posted by David Sklansky View Post
To continue with my polite, vague, politically correct posts I ask this.

How many of the above situations would have been played the way you recommend by the baby boomer most successful players who had no access to a chart?
The top MTT circuit players are playing almost all of these spots correctly from what I've seen. Any 10$ hu hyper reg will also know how to play these spots close to perfect.

These charts, (with and without antes), are easy to get your hands on and not that difficult to spot the trends once you have them.

Obviously this is all GTO, playing GTO preflop will generally be a huge mistake vs most live players.
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Old Yesterday, 02:34 PM   #380
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Re: Hellmuth vs. Negreanu "High Stakes Duel 2" Confirmed

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Originally Posted by friendly john View Post
Although the short stack play was shockingly bad from both players, some of these hands you identify as mistakes are 100% correct in GTO.

For example:
"11.5xBB 5:27 N open limps Kqs" - This is mostly a limp, never shove.
"7.5BB 5:35 H open limps Q3o" - This is mostly a limp.
"7.5xBB H limps 99" - This is mostly a limp.
I learned the pre solver way. I guess there has been GTO analysis of short stack play? Q3o is a little close, but I wouldn't think of limping KQs or 99 that short stacked.
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Old Yesterday, 04:02 PM   #381
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Re: Hellmuth vs. Negreanu "High Stakes Duel 2" Confirmed

11.5 is deep.

A limped pot at 11.5bb is the same spr as at minraised pot at 23bb

Many of the hands you consider mistakes are standard play by husng regs, both in terms of solved GTO play and exploitative play v someone who is passive.

There are some howlers for sure, but many are standard or could be good exploits v passive players
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Old Yesterday, 04:31 PM   #382
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Re: Hellmuth vs. Negreanu "High Stakes Duel 2" Confirmed

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Originally Posted by teddybloat View Post
11.5 is deep.

A limped pot at 11.5bb is the same spr as at minraised pot at 23bb

Many of the hands you consider mistakes are standard play by husng regs, both in terms of solved GTO play and exploitative play v someone who is passive.

There are some howlers for sure, but many are standard or could be good exploits v passive players
I am not an expert on HUSNG play. I just wanted to present the hands so people here could see what we are talking about.

I wonder if either of them have spent much time playing HUSNGs or any SNGs, or they wouldn't play like that.

These guys are both strong players, and I wouldn't underestimate them for not knowing a lot of the newer theory. However, they may be maintaining a pretense of still (or ever in Hellmuth's case) being top players. If they did not have the sponsorship money, they might need to work out what stakes they can really beat today.
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Old Today, 12:06 PM   #383
David Sklansky
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Re: Hellmuth vs. Negreanu "High Stakes Duel 2" Confirmed

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Originally Posted by teddybloat View Post
11.5 is deep.


Many of the hands you consider mistakes are standard play by husng regs, both in terms of solved GTO play and exploitative play v someone who is passive.
If an opponent rarely raises after you limp and always bets his pairs, draws, and ace highs, on the flop and check folds everything else, limping with 72o is a lot better than folding and usually better than pushing.
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Old Today, 12:35 PM   #384
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Re: Hellmuth vs. Negreanu "High Stakes Duel 2" Confirmed

Not a lot of awareness in this thread regarding the made for TV aspect of things. This not, nor is it intended to be optimal poker. The last thing PokerGo wants is a twenty minute match and both of these two, who are more marketing conscious than just about anything else, understand that a four to six hour match is far preferable to a one hour match.

Serious question: It both players play GTO poker, how long can one expect the match to last?And at that match length, is it marketable and does it create incentive as a brand builder for either player?

I think this is a WWE steel cage match and some people watching are convinced that it is a legitimate boxing match.
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Old Today, 01:16 PM   #385
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Re: Hellmuth vs. Negreanu "High Stakes Duel 2" Confirmed

With these duels, I wonder what would happen if you have set over set on the third hand (or maybe quads over quads in the case of Hellmuth vs. Negreanu). Do you end the show after 10 minutes?
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Old Today, 01:48 PM   #386
Paul12907
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Re: Hellmuth vs. Negreanu "High Stakes Duel 2" Confirmed

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Originally Posted by Dima2000123 View Post
With these duels, I wonder what would happen if you have set over set on the third hand (or maybe quads over quads in the case of Hellmuth vs. Negreanu). Do you end the show after 10 minutes?
Only if its in Phils favour, because if its in Dnegs favour the apex predator check/folds turn.
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Old Today, 03:34 PM   #387
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Re: Hellmuth vs. Negreanu "High Stakes Duel 2" Confirmed

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky View Post
If an opponent rarely raises after you limp and always bets his pairs, draws, and ace highs, on the flop and check folds everything else, limping with 72o is a lot better than folding and usually better than pushing.
Husng regs won't fold 72o much shallower than 11.5bb readless

Even if villain check 100% including his pairs+ it's still correct to limp 72o v most opponents.


Limping is often the best option and it's something husng players have known for years.
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