Although the short stack play was shockingly bad from both players, some of these hands you identify as mistakes are 100% correct in GTO.

For example:
"11.5xBB 5:27 N open limps Kqs" - This is mostly a limp, never shove.
"7.5BB 5:35 H open limps Q3o" - This is mostly a limp.
"7.5xBB H limps 99" - This is mostly a limp.

I, for one, am mostly impressed with Hellmuth’s flawless play. I especially admire how calm he remained after he got dangerously short. He remained poised and adroitly came back and crushed DNeg’s soul. I would never , I repeat never, voluntarily play Hellmuth heads up. I respect money too much.

The top MTT circuit players are playing almost all of these spots correctly from what I've seen. Any 10$ hu hyper reg will also know how to play these spots close to perfect.

These charts, (with and without antes), are easy to get your hands on and not that difficult to spot the trends once you have them.

Obviously this is all GTO, playing GTO preflop will generally be a huge mistake vs most live players.

I learned the pre solver way. I guess there has been GTO analysis of short stack play? Q3o is a little close, but I wouldn't think of limping KQs or 99 that short stacked.

11.5 is deep.

A limped pot at 11.5bb is the same spr as at minraised pot at 23bb

Many of the hands you consider mistakes are standard play by husng regs, both in terms of solved GTO play and exploitative play v someone who is passive.

There are some howlers for sure, but many are standard or could be good exploits v passive players

I am not an expert on HUSNG play. I just wanted to present the hands so people here could see what we are talking about.

I wonder if either of them have spent much time playing HUSNGs or any SNGs, or they wouldn't play like that.

These guys are both strong players, and I wouldn't underestimate them for not knowing a lot of the newer theory. However, they may be maintaining a pretense of still (or ever in Hellmuth's case) being top players. If they did not have the sponsorship money, they might need to work out what stakes they can really beat today.

If an opponent rarely raises after you limp and always bets his pairs, draws, and ace highs, on the flop and check folds everything else, limping with 72o is a lot better than folding and usually better than pushing.

Not a lot of awareness in this thread regarding the made for TV aspect of things. This not, nor is it intended to be optimal poker. The last thing PokerGo wants is a twenty minute match and both of these two, who are more marketing conscious than just about anything else, understand that a four to six hour match is far preferable to a one hour match.

Serious question: It both players play GTO poker, how long can one expect the match to last?And at that match length, is it marketable and does it create incentive as a brand builder for either player?

I think this is a WWE steel cage match and some people watching are convinced that it is a legitimate boxing match.

With these duels, I wonder what would happen if you have set over set on the third hand (or maybe quads over quads in the case of Hellmuth vs. Negreanu). Do you end the show after 10 minutes?

Only if its in Phils favour, because if its in Dnegs favour the apex predator check/folds turn.

Husng regs won't fold 72o much shallower than 11.5bb readless

Even if villain check 100% including his pairs+ it's still correct to limp 72o v most opponents.


Limping is often the best option and it's something husng players have known for years.

Hellmuth actually raised to 2.25xBB with 12xBB effective with 72o. Negreanu called with T9o. Hellmuth paired his deuce and took it with a cbet. You want to have a r/f range, but 72o might have been better as a limp or fold. However, I didn't think either player made a big mistake on that hand.

Yeh, the whole thing took over 6 hours! They had to have both been playing pretty nitty for that to happen.

You do not expect people to play that straightforward today, and Negreanu should play well and tricky postflop. However, there is an advantage to playing as many hands as possible in position. With like 10xBB, the BB cannot shove or raise all that wide against a balanced limping range. That is why you can limp with junk hands, even against a strong opponent.

Honestly Sklansky's insights made for a very solid basis for advanced poker play more than a decade ago but at this point everything he says seems too black and white and painfully basic, even just as a foundation. In 2021, nearly any break-even online microstakes player would already know the stuff he says just on an intuitive level, even if they couldn't explain it as well. And the examples he gives are rarely applicable or even particularly helpful in a theoretical way because, as you say, people don't play so straightforwardly/terribly as they used to

All of that being said, I assume Sklansky would have played better than either Negreanu or Hellmuth did in this match just by a basic understanding of f**king math, so props to him for that

Maybe Sklansky has similar problems to the players in that match. I am sure they can all make a living grinding at least, but Sklansky may no longer be a top level theory commentator.

I have similar problems adapting to GTO etc. It is hard when you have an approach that has worked to incorporate new theory and make it work better.

My posts in this thread were either tongue in cheek or simplistic explanations to make it easier for non pro readers to understand the points being made.

The easiest way to evaluate me now is to read my recent book The Theory of Poker Applied To No Limit. It is still slightly simplified since it is geared toward intermediate players. But there are probably a few things in there many advanced players don't know or haven't thought about.

If you promise to write a review for this forum of at least 200 words I'll send you a free copy.

I’m a 500z reg who plays HS live and I’m curious. If you can send one to UK I’ll do a full review

Limp folding in heads up no limit will now be referred to as.


Apex Predator ****.

SNGs are not spread much live. There would be big issues with the use of dealers and tables for so much short handed play. Plus, if you aren't playing 4-handed or less, they can be boring to 1-table.

I just wonder how much SNG experience Negreanu, Hellmuth, and maybe Sklansky have. They do not realize there is a whole theory to short stack play that they are missing. Negreanu hired high priced coaches for heads up cash play, but he would totally be wasting his money to hire a high priced HUSNG coach at this point. He needs some experience playing SNGs and some basic coaching first.

I do not play much NLHE cash. I am sure anything Sklansky wrote on it is excellent, and I should read the book, but I would be totally unqualified to review it.

Actually you would be the perfect reviewer.

Any MTT reg would benefit from basic husng coaching. The pay jump between 1st and 2nd is usually the biggest of all. You get heads up in an MTT and you're playing what? A 10k, 50k, 200k husng etc

What stakes are these two playing now?

I mean you were sure that limping KQs @ 11.5bb was an error when its standard, sklansky felt extreme reads were needed to limp 72o.

The first hours of coaching would be insane value for any MTT reg as there is so much low hanging fruit and basic misconceptions that could be corrected.

I never said that. Read it again.

Well rarely raising limps and donking flop with his entire continue range to me counts as an extreme read. Point being you were not correct. And you are someone who thinks deeply about the game. Could be my sarcasm radar is way off as usual though

I agree with your post here. Fact is we are all capable of thinking lines are errors when we don't understand what the correct play is.


Also playing NASH is a losing strategy.

Playing NASH from the SB at 10 BB is something horrendous like -8bb/100.

Awful awful strategy.

You don't need an excuse to deviate from them, you should not be playing anywhere near a shive fold strat that deep.

I was correct. Read what I wrote a third time.