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Hellmuth, Masks, and Live Tells Hellmuth, Masks, and Live Tells

02-12-2024 , 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmanonguitar
Lol. Some f’d up perspectives in this thread.
He’s really riled up lmao. Long Covid has made a lot of idiots even dumber.
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02-13-2024 , 12:32 PM
I'm sure Ike would gladly play Phil Hu while phill was wearing a Vader helmet the entire time. Until I found out why Ike was wearing a mask I just figured he was doing it to piss people like Phil off
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02-13-2024 , 12:47 PM
if the best tournament player says so i believe him
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02-13-2024 , 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wehitityesssss
The thread should have ended here really. It's all projection and putting on a show, getting some clicks and sponsorships.

In any case soul reading is a tiny part of the game, but now you got low stakes limit hold 'em players all hot and sweaty.
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02-13-2024 , 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLond
I don't think I've ever met a masked person who was even remotely a pleasure to be around. I'm pretty sure they've been trained to be rude to anyone unless they're a proven box-checked member of their cult. They have some kind of misguided notion that their cruelty towards everyone else in this world will somehow return some kind of kindness to them.
Am I the only one who reads this and tries to picture who'd think this way, let alone find it a good idea to post it publicly?
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02-13-2024 , 03:30 PM
Ike is obviously not a poker nit so he is an exception to what I have found is pretty reliable live read. Players that wear masks are ***usually*** pretty nitty. Like it's really rare to find a mask wearing player who is also a wild LAG lol it's funny
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02-13-2024 , 08:35 PM
That first tweet reply to the original tweet is hilarious

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02-14-2024 , 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badblue
The thread should have ended here really. It's all projection and putting on a show, getting some clicks and sponsorships.
This. Hellmuth, Ferguson, etc have been using their hands and covering their faces below the eyes for decades. Same for covering the neck. Sunglasses for many to cover the eyes. Nowadays, you see guys all the time using their hoods when in a hand to cover their mouths.

It's not a mask issue per se, which makes all the mask-specific discussion basically irrelevant.
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02-14-2024 , 02:30 PM
I asked this before but no one seems to have an answer: what tells, if any, do experienced players exhibit that would otherwise be covered by a respirator?

And sure, there are some possible specific tendencies – e.g. licking lips, mouth breathing vs. nose breathing – that live noobs might have. (Hell, if I had played poker when I was 12, anyone would have spotted a rock-solid tell: whenever I tried to hide joy, I closed my mouth with my teeth separated.) But even then, such players would also be throwing smoke signals through their eyes, neck, posture, hands, etc.

And among experienced pros like Ike specifically? Seems like he's giving up nothing. Badblue is right: this is Hellmuth's version of clout chasing.
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02-14-2024 , 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist
I asked this before but no one seems to have an answer: what tells, if any, do experienced players exhibit that would otherwise be covered by a respirator?

And sure, there are some possible specific tendencies e.g. licking lips, mouth breathing vs. nose breathing that live noobs might have. (Hell, if I had played poker when I was 12, anyone would have spotted a rock-solid tell: whenever I tried to hide joy, I closed my mouth with my teeth separated.) But even then, such players would also be throwing smoke signals through their eyes, neck, posture, hands, etc.

And among experienced pros like Ike specifically? Seems like he's giving up nothing. Badblue is right: this is Hellmuth's version of clout chasing.
You can't be all loosey goosey eating a sandwich with a mask on.
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02-15-2024 , 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianhastings
He's been on a particular hot streak recently. No one is denying that Ike is a competent tournament player. Are you denying that the mask gives him an additional edge?
The fact that it bothers some people is where it gives him an edge. He probably found that out by accident and now wears it for just that reason. Smart guy that Ike!
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02-16-2024 , 05:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLond
I don't think I've ever met a masked person who was even remotely a pleasure to be around. I'm pretty sure they've been trained to be rude to anyone unless they're a proven box-checked member of their cult. They have some kind of misguided notion that their cruelty towards everyone else in this world will somehow return some kind of kindness to them.
I always find arguments of ignorance ("I have never met...) to be the dumbest for of argument.
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02-16-2024 , 06:00 AM
Personally I think hiding behind a mask of any kind shows weakness. The very best players imo will look you right in the eye when playing their hand. They will talk to you during the hand and they will stare you down, even when they are bluffing. Ivey is one of them of course, Durr as well, but there are many others like them. Too many! Doyle never needed a mask either. In fact none of the old time greats covered their faces. You can argue this is a new era, but I don't agree. Poker in the end is still poker, GTO notwithstanding. You watch the biggest tourneys on streams and you will see that it still comes down to making decisions based on how well you read the other player. The "soul" read will get the money!

I was watching the 25K NL event #2 at last year's WSOP and Chance Kornuth makes a simply amazing call of a bluff by Ren Lin with only K,8 on an empty board. There were several similar plays by the top players at the final table. Watch and learn is all I can say. Chance does wear a hat, as does Sean Winter (plus sunglasses) at the final table. That's to hide their eyes. Once upon a time in another Universe I asked my friend Amarillo Slim why he always wore a cowboy hat when playing. He looked down at me and lowered his head a couple of inches. I could no longer see his eyes. He said, "that's why!" I never forgot that lesson and have worn a baseball cap when playing ever since.
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02-16-2024 , 06:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toupee Jay
The fact that it bothers some people is where it gives him an edge. He probably found that out by accident and now wears it for just that reason. Smart guy that Ike!
i would refer to that as a them problem
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02-16-2024 , 06:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejames209
Ike is obviously not a poker nit so he is an exception to what I have found is pretty reliable live read. Players that wear masks are ***usually*** pretty nitty. Like it's really rare to find a mask wearing player who is also a wild LAG lol it's funny
I find the rushes to judgement in this thread hilarious.

For the simple reason of the games I play in, there are very few players that play more loose than I do (and still win). Playing loose is a pre-requisite. I literally couldn't get into most games I play in without it.

That said, I mostly do not wear a mask but on occasion I do. Also, since I am a dealer, I mostly do not wear a mask, but on occasion I do.

My logic on wearing a mask/not wearing a mask depends upon two factors. The first is how I feel. If I am under the weather enough to have the sniffles, but not bedridden, I will wear a mask. The second factor is if I have plans to visit my parents. They are both old and fairly immuno-compromised. If they catch anything it is major for them. Hospitization is as likely as not. So if I am playing or dealing I will wear a mask if I have plans to see them.

For the most part, no one cares. But occasionally I will hear a comment or two.

I would love to get to a place where people literally do not care. Wear a mask if you are contagious or need extra protection for whatever reason. Your choice. Why are we making a big deal about it?

That said, given everything else being equal (which is rare), I can totally see the bias thinking masked players are tight/conservative. I am sure masked players are more intelligent than the average player, but I can also see them being more straightforward and formulaic than the average player. Formulaic probably means tight.

On the third hand, the craziest, loosest player I have ever played with was an Asian gentleman who occasionally wore a mask.

Poker.
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02-16-2024 , 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimL
If I am under the weather enough to have the sniffles, but not bedridden, I will wear a mask. The second factor is if I have plans to visit my parents. They are both old and fairly immuno-compromised. If they catch anything it is major for them. Hospitization is as likely as not. So if I am playing or dealing I will wear a mask if I have plans to see them.
Thanks!

Just a year ago my mom caught it at the hospital when she went in to have a pretty minor infection treated, and died 10 days later. This is well after covid was supposed to be "just a cold". And after "caregivers" ditched any precautions.

Having some minimal consideration for other people around you, especially people you are close to, your parents - seems like a basic requirement for co-existing with each other. But here we are now.
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02-16-2024 , 03:30 PM
I'd liken all the measures routinely taken by pros, like covering one's mouth with one's hands, wearing a scarf around one's neck, or having a hoody cover a good portion of one's face, to driving a few miles over the speed limit from time to time, while what Ike is doing is akin to going 30 miles an hour over the speed limit all the time. To me, if you say Ike can't do what he's doing, then you need to clamp down and say no facial obstruction of any kind. Or to put it another way, it's the letter of the law, or not. Yes, I realize a counterargument is then what about a helmet to cover ones face entirely. I'd say that is akin to going like 75 miles over the speed limit and per se not allowed. Ike's actions are still a gray area, just darker gray.
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02-16-2024 , 04:23 PM
Phil and others should be happy Ike is masked up. Breathing is harder and his oxygen levels are lower so it is more of a handicap than an edge.
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02-16-2024 , 06:40 PM
Lots of Asians wear masks and from my experience they are generally the tightest players. Mask nit theory checks out
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02-20-2024 , 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist
I asked this before but no one seems to have an answer: what tells, if any, do experienced players exhibit that would otherwise be covered by a respirator?

And sure, there are some possible specific tendencies e.g. licking lips, mouth breathing vs. nose breathing that live noobs might have. (Hell, if I had played poker when I was 12, anyone would have spotted a rock-solid tell: whenever I tried to hide joy, I closed my mouth with my teeth separated.) But even then, such players would also be throwing smoke signals through their eyes, neck, posture, hands, etc.

And among experienced pros like Ike specifically? Seems like he's giving up nothing. Badblue is right: this is Hellmuth's version of clout chasing.
You're giving me too much credit if you think I'd have noticed the separation between your [upper and lower sets of, presumably?] teeth while your mouth was closed. That seems like a rather strange childhood life tell, by the way! Not judging because I did a lot of weird things as a kid and continue to do weird things now
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02-20-2024 , 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimL
I always find arguments of ignorance ("I have never met...) to be the dumbest for of argument.
I'd reframe it as 'arguments from limited personal experience', and I'd agree. Though we all are occasionally guilty of overgeneralizing/over-extrapolating from our own experience. Availability heuristic and all that....
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02-21-2024 , 02:01 AM
I have now gotten sick twice in the past month. I also play in a filthy cardroom.

Will be masking up. I'm also a nit, so that theory remains trueish.
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02-21-2024 , 03:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcnkwcz
I'd reframe it as 'arguments from limited personal experience', and I'd agree. Though we all are occasionally guilty of overgeneralizing/over-extrapolating from our own experience. Availability heuristic and all that....
Way, way back in the olden days when taking a formal logic class in college, the label I learned was "arguments of ignorance".

They are a terrible form of argument because they are just based off of personal experience and are greatly influenced by the awareness of the individual making them.

I have never seen Australia so it must not exist.

I have never never seen Taylor Swift in person so she must be an AI rendering.

Furthermore, it is mostly used by people who regularly have their head up their behinds. People who think ignorance is a badge of honor.

Dumb arguments.

The only valid form of an argument of ignorance is "I have never seen a mean Canadian." Everyone knows all Canadians are nice and polite.
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