Note: covering your mouth doesn't give you an edge LOL.

(unless you talk too much)

Following NVG tradition, posts focused on vaccine/anti-vaccine, covid, immunity, etc., are not allowed in NVG. (There are a million other places to express your views on those topics, including 2+2's Politics and Society forum.)

This thread will remain open as long as the mask discussion focuses on poker aspects. Posts will be deleted and the thread may be closed if we get many more posts of the disallowed nature.

I'm not playing against high-stakes crushers but I've found betting tells are the biggest ones for me rather than physical ones. A lot of players have trouble betting in a way that tells a believable story when they're bluffing, which allows me to make some hero calls.

There are some physical tells or things people say (or how they say it) that sometimes gives them away, but overall the biggest one for me has been patterns in betting that don't add up.

I actually think Ike wearing a mask at the table is fine.
But wearing a mask in a winners’ photo is obnoxious.

I don't know about the tournament series where those pictures were taken, but at the WSOP, at least, the bracelet ceremonies are held in the center of the Paris Ballroom, where hundreds if not thousands of people are seated at tables in close proximity. If I am going to wear a mask as I play at one of the tables (I do), I am not going to take it off for the photo op of the bracelet ceremony if I should happen to win a bracelet.

Far from being "obnoxious," the fact that Haxton is masked at the photo op is an indication that he is wearing it for legitimate reasons. It would be more obnoxious if I took it off.

I believe the bracelet photos are taken almost immediately after the final table, not at the bracelet ceremony, which can be a couple days later.

Before COVID many casinos had rules about hoodies covering the head (and still do), this has absolutely nothing to do with poker and tells. It has to do with facial recognition software being able to work.

Assuming that you are not worried about Phil Galfond secretly switching places with your opponent in the middle of a hand, your comments about this not being Asia and not covering your head do not apply.

There are general security concerns and poker concerns. They are different and you are addressing general security concerns. Phil Hellmueth was talking about poker tells.

So wearing a mask at a table is bad, but covering half of your face with your hands is ok.

Makes sense in some insane tin foil hat way.

What would Phil do the next time his opponent moves all in and then crawls under table and curls up into a ball?

Right on. I was always a middle limit player, but a thousand dollar win is still a good day in my book. That will buy a whole lot of groceries and gas!

How fast or slow someone bets can also be telling. Do they throw their chips in or place them in stacks? Take special interest when someone fumbles their chips when betting. I’ve said too much already.

One last thing. I love playing with many of these young whiz kids who have their noses buried in their cell phones the moment they drop out of a hand. They are missing out on a lot of information. That is why an old school guy like me still has a chance. I watch the play of every single hand!

Most casinos don't even have facial recognition software but yes it is a security issue.

My comments still apply bc I i should be able to know who I'm playing and look at them while I'm playing.People shouldn't be allowed to pretend to give a **** about COVID to conceal their face. That's exactly what this is from the vast vast majority of young poker maskers these days.

Most PEDs are illegal because they have health side effects and allowing them would cause many people to use them at their detriment. The ones that aren't illegal but not allowed give an unfair advantage to the users that others may not have. The analogy of PEDs doesn't fit face masks, it fits real time assistance. And most people are against that. Face masks are trivial and have a health benefit (maybe).

The security issue is valid, but moot if the player is only using a mask at the poker table.

Would you have an issue with a rich live one wearing a mask at your table?

Obviously if someone is giving money away no one is going to enforce the rules on them. That's always been the case with a lot of poker rules. Except in tournaments, where it's a bit more rigid. But it should still be a rule so if someone like Ike turns up trying to squeeze out an extra edge while making the game more miserable u can tell him to go **** himself.

As long as I can remember I've seen Asian tourists in Vegas casinos wear masks. Not many but enough that you saw some every day. I've never heard about that being an issue.

Re hood, if a customer would walk into our business wearing a hood we would immediately ask them to remove it. Not for security reasons but because we're not interested in having guests look like that.

I respectfully suggest that if Ike wearing a mask is making the game more miserable for someone, the problem isn't with Ike or his mask.

I mean if its allowed he can do whatever he wants, right? Its not up to us or anyone else to discuss this or the morals of it (lol poker players and their morals). If its allowed then its allowed and its his decision to wear a mask (for whatever reason).

i would never get rid of it in his shoes. Must feel great to take a winners foto like that knowing it will trigger the hell out of all these snowflakes here and on twitter.

Surely +Ev and great future tilt induce.

The idea that the people who are "triggered" by his mask is people who are anti vax (and not the same people who are similarly annoyed about people like Vogelsang) and that this is somehow a reason to praise Ike Haxton is absurd.

No one whose brain isnt politically mush and sees politics in everything can think that poker players wearing masks is anything but a negative for the game. Ike Haxton never cared about what is good for the game though, an egotistical individual through and through.

Also lol @ "its not up to us to discuss whether something is allowed or not" on a poker forum about a topic pertaining to poker table etiquette.

Yeah I couldn't care less if someone feels like wearing a mask off the poker table. I don't care about that stuff one way or the other. What I do care about is poker not becoming about 1/100th as fun as it should be. Masks = antisocial and reducing the one bit of edge that non-GTO players still have.

That's his prerogative. If you work at McDonald's, do you care what's in the long term best interest of the burger industry?

15 years ago, I doubt he expected to still be around poker in 2024. Same as almost every other young player back then. The difference is that he kept crushing while most others stopped playing when the game got more difficult for them and they had enough money to do something else. Acting like players owed something to the poker community or the game is the same argument people make against coaches / coaching platforms.

My point was simply that if Ike Haxton was allowed, he would do anything he could, regardless of the good of the game, to improve whatever tiny edge he could find. Probably the only misreg worse than him is Vogelsang. Of course hes a good player but that doesnt mean other players or viewers should accept whatever bs behavior he comes up with to increase his own edge, without voicing their distaste.

And as to your question. Haxton (and poker pros in general) is much more like a burger salesman than a McDonalds worker if you want to draw a parallel between poker and the burger industry. For any person who decides that poker is a boring game and quits playing, he loses future EV (albeit a tiny bit per person but it adds up if general sentiment on poker turns more negative). He definitely should care if his kind of behavior makes people not want to eat burgers.

My whole point is that he doesn't care about that because he isn't concerned about his own long term future in poker. I doubt he would be anywhere near the poker world today if it wasn't so easy for him still.

FWIW, I haven't met Ike in a very long time. But back in the day he was well liked among other players his generation. Same goes for Vogelsang btw.

Ok so you are personally chummy with Ike and therefore his joke behavior is something we should just accept. Got it.

Him "not caring" doesnt make his actions more likeable or acceptable in any way btw. If hes aware that its negative and not just an asperger pro who doesnt understand, that just makes him even more of a douche.

Certainly doesn't make him more likable. "Acceptable" is obviously subjective. There are probably tens of millions of people in the US who approach their job with a FU mentality. Most of them just aren't in the position to letting their employers and customers know about it. Professional poker players who don't rely on being invited into (semi-) private games aren't in that group.

Everyone can feel about guys like Ike or Vogelsang however they want. I'm just disagreeing with the notion that they owe anything to the game of poker or others in the poker community.

I think that humans can def detect subtle tells from observing another's mouth area. Sometimes we cannot explain them but they exist

Are you allowed to wear a mask in a casino while playing blackjack?