I don't get the controversy. More props to Phil Hellmuth for being able to 1.8 markup while not knowing modern theory.

If I could get 1.8 Markup I would do it, as would any other player. I'd probably sell as much as I could.

What a bunch of righteous tool bags itt. Hypocrisy 101. Y’all bum hun,get on lists with suckers , play with drunks and druggies, send degens further into the abyss and Phil’s a bad guy? Wow . Y’all better hope that the fish don’t figure out 1.8 w Phil is a better investment then them sitting w pros.

Should have sold 100% at 1.8, he can still improve his selling game.

I think you have to separate "Phil Helmuth" the brand from "Phil Helmuth" the person. I know very little of the person and have never met him.

The brand doesn't pretend to meet a high standard. He's the "Poker Brat" and knows he's going to be up against the line by rule and ethics. I'd put him in the same category as Gaylord Perry. He admitted he cheated by throwing spit balls. He's still in the baseball HOF.

Just shows phil is such a great salesman

So, who's a bigger tool box, Doug Lee or Phil?

Don't see what the issue is besides him starting late in the knockout thing which is ...meh? But he's not trying to hide it or anything

if there ever was a documentary where different psychologists etc would talk about whats up with Phil and review some situations, that would be interesting. whining about the markup is not.

Honestly i think there needs to be education about expected ROI on these sites, but that might kill their business model of burning money for investors slowly.

Exorbitant markup is a scam only (?) if the person offering is aware it is too high.

It is difficult to know whether the person is aware the markup is unrealistic unless you have proof of him saying so.

Therefore it is difficult to definitively state it is unethical, because it varies depending on case. Phil's delusions of grandeur are rarely confronted publicly so when it turns out he is benefiting from his image in this way it makes it particularly upsetting to the community I guess.

What is annoying is that this guy enjoys a success and popularity that is totally illegitimate given how unskilled he is at what he is doing.
He won a lot decades ago when everybody was clueless and by exploiting the fish later on who would overplay vs him because it's a celebrity but he could not beat relatively low stakes online and therefore he should be outed for being a fraud/clown more than he is imo.

Oh and his whole fake persona pretending he is the best in the world is unbearable.

We had the same discussion here already when Staples tried to sell off stakes he clearly didn't beat as an auction, claiming later it was "purely for entertainment value", reaching similar MUs.

Yes, it's scummy, yes it's predatory. Some are okay with it, some aren't. Nothing is done about it, so it'll happen.

There's really nothing else to say.

Yes there is. If he gets mocked and put in his place by his peers enough, people are going to notice it and it will taint his reputation. Eventually he won't be able to scam anyone.

Phil has fooled the poker community into believing he is a pro for like 15 years.
He is a business man who makes money with these staking deals, sponsorships, appearances etc.

I still don't get how late regging is some sort of scam or angle against his backers. Sure it doesn't do his backers any favours but he literally has nothing to gain from doing it other than his own perceived edge from either playing shorter or getting enough sleep or whatever reason.

also a comedian. At this point I feel like he is being deliberately clueless and arrogant knowing this is the only way he keeps the attention

Decades ago....

His last 6 years look like this

$4,394,823
$485,138
$303,604
$1,028,128
$1,669,246
$1,133,312

Looks like white magic still has the mouth breathers in rage because they are stuck playing 50NL for life.

I have just finished his autobiography - Poker Brat - and it is a tough read. It has the same surreal delusionality of much of Trump's stuff, but it is worth struggling through.

I agree with all those who say that he is not intentionally scamming, and that it doesn't really matter. Anyone who spends money they care about backing someone without researching them deserves to lose it. I also agree that turning up late is part of his game, and no one can complain.

I suspect it is not as outrageous as it seems. I have done some sums on his results in the past. In about 2012, I looked at Hellmuth's cashes in WSOP events and counted the number of times he made it to heads-up. In the previous 95 times that he made the money in WSOP events, he made heads-up 22 times.

I don't have the spreadsheet now, but that was not just due to small field sizes. I did some binomial maths on how many times you would expect to make heads-up, given field sizes, if all players had equal ability, and the results for that were:

P(makes heads up 5 times or more) ~ 1/14
P(makes heads up 6 times or more) ~ 1/53
P(makes heads up 7 times or more) ~ 1/294
P(makes heads up 8 times or more) ~ 1/2500
P(makes heads up 9 times or more) ~ 1/47000

... so 22 times is pretty astonishing!

He is a man of many obvious flaws, and I am anything but a fanboi, but he does have some special talent when it comes to closing out tournaments after the bubble.

What is astonishing that he open limped folded 97s in SB if thats true. And that anyone is so stupid to defend his abilities as a poker player.

someone pls enlighten me what is 1.8 markup. Does it mean of the net profits, the staker's share is going to be 1/1.8*100 = 0.55% meaning if net profit is 100 staker will get for each 100 he contributes 55?

There’s clearly some confusion here. Entering late and turning up late are two different things.

If you enter late, you get a full stack. SHRB doesn’t allow late entry though
If you turn up late, you have already entered and your stack is blinding down until you arrive.

I don't think theres any popular streamers that sell at a MU relative to their skill/roi at said stakes.

If the market will bear 1.8, then Hellmuth would be more delusional and stupid to sell at a lower rate. In fact, if as a result of this controversy, Hellmuth sells at 1.4, someone (I'll nominate timex) will buy up his entirety at 1.4 and then re-sell at 1.8.

Yeah he's a clown. Yeah, it's highly unlikely to be +EV. Yeah, he should show up on time. Yeah, he should be nicer to other players.

None of that has anything to do with the markup he chooses, and I have no clue why a bunch of pro poker players are trying to interfere with the big fish's ability to get in the game.

How much was sold at 1.8?

Disclaimer- tooooo lazy

I dont think a couple pros calling him out on twitter is really interfering with his ability to get into the game. As its been said his investors all know it's a sucker bet anyway.

He has no moral responsibility to charge a certain MU but as pointed out not showing up on time and torching chips when he sells 80% himself is kinda lame. It's all about attention too so ya fair game to take some heat.

cool stuff man, what he has done is harder than flopping a royal flush