why cry instead of getting some "investors?"
losers

they actually care about those people? yea right.
losers

Poker is full of whiny bitches now who cry about literally anything

Isn't this the American way though?

Liar's Poker illuminates an ultra successful Wall Street firm selling sacks of **** in the 80s. This is what America is still about as far as I can tell.

I use to think a 1.3 markup was redonkulous.

Now a 1.3 markup looks like a bargain !

Isn’t is supply and demand? If you really want a piece of PH, you gotta pay extra. If he wanted or needed more backers he could lower it from 14 bracelet level down to like 11 bracelet level.

Also, if you don’t know what a fair price is on backing professional gamblers, then do not back professional gamblers.

I think hellmuth is a delusional douche, but think its laughable that people who play poker, which is a game built around removing money from people less informed than you, want to get ehtical about markup.

If hes found people dumb enough to enter into a -EV deal with him, more power to him. And im sure just like people like to convince themselves that its ok to take money from the fish at the table "because some people just like to play poker for fun and are happy to pay for the entertainment" , I'm sure there are lots of people who want a piece of Hellmuth just so they can have the excitment or tell their friends how they have a piece of Hellmuth and are happy to pay more than its worth for that.

+1

Why aren't consenting adults allowed to make their own investments, whether or not they are profitable or not assuming all information is on the table and there is no deception? If I want to try and sell X above market value I have the right to do so and if somebody wants to pay that price then they have the right to do so.

Sure 1.8 MU is ludicrous and many savvy investors agree it's -EV but if Helmuth wants to sell at that price point and 3rd parties want to pay that price who cares?

This is why it's not a big deal. Some % of gamblers are happy to put money on awful bets for fun; PH is a debonair, A-list celebrity and it's not like the return is insurmountable for individual tournaments. Moreover, it doesn't appear people are taking out second mortgages to buy his staking packages; he's a shyster and idiots are happy to oblige him...making this known and discussing it is great, but caring about it seems stupid.

This.

Scratch offs tho

Fixed

Hi Alobar:

I think you have this about right.

The only place I would differ is that with a few people, and perhaps Hellmuth is an example, they represent themselves as an ambassador of poker who exemplify ethical behavior. That’s where it becomes difficult for me to reconcile.

Best wishes,
Mason

Ill try to explain this the best i can. Normally Id say "let the buyer decide for himself whether they want to make a profitable buy or if they want to pay bigger money to get a piece of their idol Hellmuth" IF someone is recreationally buying and knows its not the smartest thing and want entertainment, fine go do it and its not bad at all.

However, if the person playing the game puts up a RIDICULOUS number its their right to do, but it is taking advantage of people. in Phils warped mind though he believes its a fair deal so it doesnt make him scum. Hes just screwedup and overconfident.
Its very wrong because what about your average Joe who doesnt even know what markup is, will just do it and do really anythng hellmuth says cuz hes"the greatest in the world" and take his word.

Let me comment on how ridiculous Phil really is. He recently got staked in the 300k and nobody seems to be mad about that, he showedup toa 255k stack. He lit 45k, 45 grand on FIRE, of peoples money, who paid markup and invested in him. That is INEXCuseabLE.
Theres no excuse, they paid a markup for what? LARGE underdog to begin with.
He then proceeded to limp in, and flat call 3 and 4bets oop over and over, putting no pressure on his opponents and constantly folded to aggression. He was so ridiculously outplayed and he doesnt even know it. Its sad. IF Phil had a good heart he would refund the money to investors, they werent given a fair chance to even view him and started off such negative edge aswell with the 45k lit on fire.

This 1.8 on a turbo knockout is outright theft theres really no other way to say it. He is doing it subconsciously though which is good, but still bad.
First off, he is a giant underdog in the field because he literally doesnt know how to play a 10 bb stack. You cant even argue that. He seriously limp folded 97suited in the SB with 8 or 9 bbs when all folded to him in the 300k. If he doesnt know how atrocious that is, then he needs more help than i thought. Besides him just being bad, a percentage of the buy in goes to the knockouts, and when he enters he has no chance to ever get any knockouts because everybody will have him covered so thats more money down the tubes. . then throw in the 1.8 and you literally lose money on a mincash depending on payouts.

If anyone knowingly buys, they deserve to lose, like the people who still played lock etc,
if people buy and dont know better, shame on them that sucks but shoulda been more careful. I think if Phil was a decent guy he'd write" super high variance game anything can happen" or something to let people know its not gonna be a cakewalk like he thinks it will be.

FYP . . .

Hi WhatsUp:

One quick comment. If PH is a poor player when the effective stack is deep, like at the beginning of a tournament, but plays great against players who don’t have the chips to play past the flop, he just might be better off to come in late. So his blinding off part of his stack may actually make sense for him.

Best wishes,
Mason

Finally, a voice of reason in this thread. Capitalism at its best.

Right, so in that tourney specifically PHil shouldnt play to begin with. Do you know they started superrrrrr deep? GOing into day 2, everybody for the most part over 150 bbs.

Still, you cant tell me how its fair or ok he torched 45k on fire? I mean, he still had 255k at the 2500 or 3k bb level... theres still a ton of play left there.Maybe he should of showedup and played 30 bb day 2 lol

Professional poker players make their entire livelihoods off other players who are either (a) bad at estimating the skill of the other players in the game or (b) willing to pay for the entertainment of playing with a person they know is better than them.

The people investing in Hellmuth are either bad estimating his skill or are willing to pay for the enterainment of essentially playing along with him. How is this any different?

If Phil was being dishonest about his intent to enter the tournament late, this is problematic. But he's pretty well-known for always entering late, so I don't really see this being any issue here.

You silly snowflakes

PH can charge what he wants

He's not scamming anyone

And why would him turning up late [as he always does] be scamming people [?] he's playing in the way he thinks is optimal for him to do the best.

BUT... surely players actually playing in the same tournament having parts of each other is ethically wrong

I just watched on the SHR Bowl as the bubble boy got knocked out ‘Seth Davies’ – that Dan Negs said, ‘he lost 210k in side bets with Seth being knocked out’… come on – that is truly totally unethical. Forget PH charging what he wants – just because you think he’s an awful player it doesn’t mean others don’t see value in having a punt. Dan Negs betting on other players in tournaments that he’s in – and in such a way that he can win or lose 210k+…. That isn’t just unethical. I would think in any other sport or game that would be deemed illegal. That would end up with Negs being banned for life, or arrested and jailed.

How can these sorts of arrangements not end up with people cheating/playing differently?

I saw on a live stream [WPT500] two players who had confused the commentators with their play against each other. It was clearly cheating. But a pro explained it to me, that if they have large amounts of each other [both on the final table and final 6 or 5 at the time] than that’s the sort of play that is expected.

G’ah, it seems 2+2 just likes to go for ‘celebrities’ rather than the real cheats and unethical players

You guys realize him charging 1.00 would also be a ripoff, right?

What do you mean by rip off.

As I feel you are using the word/s wrongly

Do you mean - in your opinon it would be a bad bet/investment [?]

People go to the racetrack and make bad bets for fun all the time.

Do you guys hang around the slots/table games and scream out to people putting money in the slots/on the table - that those games are a rip off [?]

Well Phil needs to live of something and we all know he is not living of his poker skills.

Not following details so this this may be a stupid question.

Why wouldn't he enter late?

Not sure what your question is?

But others on this thread and on twitter suggest him turning up late (after a few levels) is somehow scamming his backers

I suggest it isn’t, and is how he normally plays, and how he thinks he gets the best chance to win/make money