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Heads Up Hold'em Solved? Heads Up Hold'em Solved?

10-09-2013 , 08:22 AM
Is 10bb 6 max satties "solved" ?
10-09-2013 , 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziki6368 Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
Is 10bb 6 max satties "solved" ?
Yes.

Don't think he's planning on telling anyone else how though.

[IMG]http://s13.************/477daou5z/jorj.jpg[/IMG]
10-09-2013 , 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziki6368 Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
Is 10bb 6 max satties "solved" ?
HU holdem limit was totaly solved this year .
HU NL 200deep is not totaly solved, but the best bot beats the second best bot with an edge of (only) 0.3bb/100 over 1 million hand.
(i will post the sick HM graph)
So i highy doubt that a humain can beat them.

6max is spared for the moment because it required more computational resource
10-09-2013 , 12:03 PM
Link for each of these?

Also to all of the people throwing around casual observations/accusations of botting for Doug and Ben, it seems to me like you should present some evidence to go with the random forum typing. Like or dislike who you want. These guys are professionals. The challenge is good publicity for poker. Randomly saying that they are horrible cheats is wrong.

Last edited by DougL; 10-09-2013 at 12:09 PM.
10-09-2013 , 12:17 PM
yeah, i'd like to see some proof of a bot beating ike or some other hu nl beast playing 200bb deep (or even 100bb). definitely want to see the graph either way.
10-09-2013 , 12:29 PM
Ohsosick seems pretty half informed/wrong.
10-09-2013 , 12:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohsosick Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
I'll post links that evening, I'm at work.
Definitely looking forward to that and plan on reading.

Quote:
I'm sure that sauce123 is not a cheater I have so much respect for him.
If he was cheating, he would never have agreed to have his name published on the annualpokercompetition site.
Sorry not to quote the people who were. I put two different things in one post and see how it could look like I was saying you were one the people of posting the accusations. I understood you weren't and again apologize for being unclear. At the time it was "hey, new paragraph, new subject". But, it doesn't really read that way.

Agree with you that there is not reason to think that either of these guys are involved in bad stuff.
10-09-2013 , 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohsosick Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
HU holdem limit was totaly solved this year .
HU NL 200deep is not totaly solved, but the best bot beats the second best bot with an edge of (only) 0.3bb/100 over 1 million hand.
(i will post the sick HM graph)
So i highy doubt that a humain can beat them.

6max is spared for the moment because it required more computational resource
How does it follow that since the best bots are evenly matched, they are likely better than the best humans? Seems almost irrelevant to me how they fair against each other as they are likely using similar systems and rules. It's not surprising (to me) that the two best are very evenly matched. I'd be surprised if they weren't. I'm fairly ignorant on the subject though so maybe I'm missing something.
10-09-2013 , 12:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by druidfluid Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
How does it follow that since the best bots are evenly matched, they are likely better than the best humans? Seems almost irrelevant to me how they fair against each other as they are likely using similar systems and rules. It's not surprising (to me) that the two best are very evenly matched. I'd be surprised if they weren't. I'm fairly ignorant on the subject though so maybe I'm missing something.
I was thinking this exact same thing.Bot 1 having a .3 edge on Bot 2 tells absolutely nothing about what their BB/100 would be vs a human. Ide highly highly doubt if there were bots that could beat a good HU player at 200+bb.

When two people (bots) play someone will always have an edge, so thats not shocking or anything.
10-09-2013 , 12:53 PM
I'm also dubious that HU LHE was totally solved. I'd believe that even the best humans can't beat some bot(s), perhaps with the bot given unlimited time or some other requirement to assist it. An actual final solution of GTO for a real poker game, is a much bigger claim. However, we'll see this evening. I've been wrong before.
10-09-2013 , 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohsosick Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
HU holdem limit was totaly solved this year .
HU NL 200deep is not totaly solved, but the best bot beats the second best bot with an edge of (only) 0.3bb/100 over 1 million hand.
(i will post the sick HM graph)
So i highy doubt that a humain can beat them.
I highly doubt this is true
10-09-2013 , 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
Definitely looking forward to that and plan on reading.

the link for the limit HE solved this year :

http://www.computerpokercompetition....owall=&start=1

Quote:
Team Members: Alexander Lee
Affiliation: Independent
Location:
Technique:
The bot was built using proprietary universal game theory methods applied to poker. We complete Fixed Limit Hold’em game tree search without approximation. Original AI utilizes own database of about 3TB and to comply with completion format our team provided special simplified version of Neo - Neopokerbot_FL2V.
10-09-2013 , 01:10 PM
Mods, confirm the link is clean and im deff interested in looking
10-09-2013 , 01:14 PM
The graph beetween best no limit hu bot (200deep @200NL) and the second :

This variant is not solved, but the nash approximation used by the bots are so close to the real nash that the winner can only won 670bb on 102KH :
0.33BB/100
Std Dev= 131bb/100

10-09-2013 , 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Next Level Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
I was thinking this exact same thing.Bot 1 having a .3 edge on Bot 2 tells absolutely nothing about what their BB/100 would be vs a human. Ide highly highly doubt if there were bots that could beat a good HU player at 200+bb.
The edge is thin because their game are close to the GTO
10-09-2013 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohsosick Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
The edge is thin because their game are close to the GTO
No, that is not the only reason to why the bots could differ.
10-09-2013 , 01:19 PM
If they were playing both close to GTO wouldn't both red lines and blue lines be close to 0? (not rethorical, I'm really asking)
10-09-2013 , 01:20 PM
link should be fine.
10-09-2013 , 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotton Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
If they were playing both close to GTO wouldn't both red lines and blue lines be close to 0? (not rethorical, I'm really asking)
no


There are several equilibrium (even in smaller game like kuhn poker...)
10-09-2013 , 01:31 PM
LOL @ using winnings at all to estimate how close they are to equilibrium. Double lol @ 100k hand sample.

I just coded 2 bots that are even closer to equilibrium for you. They both fold every hand no matter what the action. I played them for 100M hands (dwarfing your sample). Both winrates were 0. Zomg Nash.
10-09-2013 , 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mperich Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
LOL @ using winnings at all to estimate how close they are to equilibrium.
I use winnings AND deviation standard.
(ANd the edge on the other competitor)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mperich Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
Double lol @ 100k hand sample.
They played 1 million hand i think, but i 've only 10% on that sample on my HM.
All the hand are downloadalbe on le alberta website
10-09-2013 , 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohsosick Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
I use winnings AND deviation standard.
(ANd the edge on the other competitor)

They played 1 million hand i think, but i 've only 10% on that sample on my HM.
All the hand are downloadalbe on le alberta website
Winnings and standard deviation have nothing to do with nash (unless you are talking about winnings vs a best response strategy).
10-09-2013 , 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mperich Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
Winnings and standard deviation have nothing to do with nash (unless you are talking about winnings vs a best response strategy).
Imagine two different GTO strategy is played in NL HU 200 deep .
How will be the graph after 1 million hand?

And the high standard deviation amplifies this result ...
10-09-2013 , 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohsosick Heads Up Hold'em Solved?
Imagine two different GTO strategy is played in NL HU 200 deep .
How will be the graph after 1 million hand?
How can you have 2 "different" GTO strategies?

If one is playing perfectly GTO and the other is playing a different strategy it would appear the 2nd is not playing GTO.

Also just showing us the results of 2 bots vs each other does nothing to show how good they are.
10-09-2013 , 02:03 PM
It would look in the same range as any other 2 players playing each other with an expected winrate of 0 and a given std dev.

      
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