sure and that risk goes up a lot when you run it twice.

found this. includes all the aftermath...

wow he's a bigger scumbag than i thought.
he never said "if you have a set i'm going once" but he kept repeating this false statement over and over again after the fact.
he said "i can't win twice " as the turn was coming out

shouldn't these players know he's an angle shooting pos and just not run it twice with him being they play together a lot?

By the way I was sitting in the 9 seat with the grey Tshirt.

Chris: How many times, Harry?
Harry: Twice.
Harry: Do you have any of that
Chris: Show them
Harry: Sure
Chris: What do you have?
Harry: What do you have?
Chris: Set.

Then we hear the sound of the burn card be placed down on the table. As the flick of the turn card can be heard on the stream at 1:04:28, Harry says "once, once". The turn and river are Q♥ K♥ and Harry wins the run with a backdoor flush.

I can tell you with 100% confidence that Harry would not have run the board more than once after changing his mind. I've known him for nearly 15 years and he is one of the few guys in the community I actually trust. I can count them on one hand.

I can't say with 100% confidence that he didn't see the turn card but would say that he probably didn't upon reviewing the tape. He starts to say "once" right after the flicking sound of the turn card comes out. Remember the graphics pick up the cards before we actually see them sometimes because the RFID reader is right in front of the dealer.

So the real question here is can someone change their minds about running it more than once after the cards are revealed. We know that running the cards more than once does not change the equity of the hand so knowing what the other player holds also does not change the equity. I think Harry changed his mind because (and said) that he would never be able to win two times vs a set.

Making the assumption that he did not see the turn card, is him changing his mind about running it more than once cheating? Definitely not. Is it unethical, I don't really think so, but I can see how a player might get upset about it, sort of like being slow rolled. Is it an "angle"? No, and anyone that understands poker math should realize that revealing the cards and then changing the deal does not gain any sort of advantage. Running the cards more than once only decreases the variance within the hand it does not change the overall equity of the hand.

However, I can also see the "haziness" in whether or not the turn card was revealed from the other side of the table. More importantly if I did not know Harry I would be pissed if I was in Chris's situation because I wouldn't have been able to determine if Harry had seen the turn card or not before changing his decision. But I would NOT have been pissed if a guy changed his mind about running it more than once after he saw my hand. It makes no difference. But even Chris said multiple times throughout the night that he thought there was "no malicious intent" by Harry. We went on playing for another 7 hours or so that night and it was rarely mentioned again.

Bart thanks for posting.

Obviously it doesn't change the equity of the hand if he changes his mind before the turn is dealt- however yelling once as the turn is about to come out sets you up to angle for once if you win the first run.

And if he actually did see the turn card before yelling once (i'll take your word for it that he didn't) it does change the equity of the hand.Allowing someone to change their mind "at the flick of the turn card" is way too late as there's two good a chance they can see the turn card first, especially in the 1,2, 8 (harry's) or 9 seats and change their equity.

It being rarely mentioned again probably has more to do with the fact you have a player putting in 500 preflop with 93 offsuit and wanting to keep him happy than anything else.

Here is an aftermath question for Bart. They counted down the pot and the all in call after the ruling. Did they do something for Chris?

Two words or less:

Complete scumbag.

And Bart, he saw the ****ing turn card. Get objective. I don't care if you think he is wonderful and honest. This was bull****.

I see no mention here of Harry having said "if you have a set i'm going once" before agreeing to run twice, though this is what he alleged multiple times in his discussion with the floorman. Do you agree Harry was lying?

I'd trust Harry as far as I could throw him, he comes off as a total dbag.

exactly he says it so many times- except when he claimed he orginally said it.

If they had to call in the Casino Manager to get a ruling in favor of this dirtbag and I'm the other guy I'm calling for gaming commission.

This is where the problem is with your logic. It takes 2 people to agree to run it twice. I have been in the situation many times and have asked and been asked "what do you have" before it is decided, one way or the other. This, obviously, didn't happen here, so the agreement was based on only the action, all-in and call. If you polled a thousand players, recs and pros, I would be willing to bet you you would not find more than a hand-full that would say it was okay for one person in a two person agreement to change the terms after the agreement was made after receiving "additional information" such as is the case here.

After they BOTH agreed to run it twice. Chris showed his cards. It was only after obtaining this additional information, info that was not available before they BOTH agreed to run it twice, that Harry, unilaterally, decided to run it once. Was it an angle. NO. Did Harry see the turn? No. Is that even the point? No. Was it cheating? No. Was it right? No. Was it scummy? Yes.

If it takes 2 people to agree to run it twice how can it be fair or reasonable for one person to change that agreement after he asks for additional information? "What do you have?" Let's look at a different case. What if Harry had Kings and Chris had Aces and they agree to run it twice before showing the hole cards. When the cards are shown someone else at the table says I folded a King. Would it be okay for Harry to say "I can't win it twice" and change the terms back to running it once without Chris agreeing? Or, vice versa, Chris changing it from running it once to running it twice because "he can't lose twice"? I don't think so.

If what you say is true, then what would stop a player from seeing the hands face up AND the turn AND then change his mind because "I can't win it twice"? Nothing, if your logic is correct....well, nothing but the implied contract of playing fair that most poker players abide by.

Further, the most telling part of Harry's behavior was when he started telling everybody that running it twice isn't in the "bylaws", whatever the hell those are. He got louder and louder. He repeated himself a dozen times. My guess is he was hoping if he said it enough he could bully everybody else in the game. He went on to say the house couldn't do anything because the rules don't allow for running it twice. He is, of course, correct. In some games, to accommodate the players, the house turns a blind eye to this rule and allows the players and dealers to run it twice. I think the house tried to reason with Harry, but in the end I believe their hands were tied. Running it twice is NOT a part of the state approved rules.

The immediate fallout from Harry's conduct is that players will no longer have the option to run it twice on LATB, or even in the whole casino.

Like you, I like Harry. I do not believe he was cheating and if he hadn't got so emotionally involved in arguing his point I think things might have gone different. I am 100% certain that Harry would not have agreed to run it twice had he known that Chris had a set....but he didn't, and he did agree to run it twice.

I hope, upon reflection, Harry mans up and pays Chris back for a pot that should have been split.

w/e he could've seen the turn, he put himself in a spot where he could've been running a scam, so now he's responsible

even if he did not have any malicious intent, he's responsible for 50% of the pot at the least

Run It 1.5 Times, T-Shirts, Hoodies and Baseball Caps will be the next big thing.

Agreed. If he actually cared about going strictly by the book, he shouldn't have agreed to run it twice in the first place. Using that to weasel out of the deal is blatantly dishonest.

I voted no in error, it was clearly a scumbag move. Can a mod delete my vote?

OK, who voted no in the poll? Come on man.

I voted no because I think it is slightly nearer to no than yes.

If there was a "he did wrong, but it wasn't an angle" option I would have voted for that one.

I think he genuinely changed his mind when he saw Chris had a set.
The dealer was already in motion having heard them both agree to run it twice.

Had the dealer for some reason been very slow then we would only be discussing if it is okay/acceptable etiquette, or within the rules to change your mind about running it twice after you see your opponent's hand, but because of the speed it all happened at the focus is on it being an angle.

Him then stating that he mentioned "if you have a set I'm going once", in the aftermath discussions is probably him saying what he was thinking. But he clearly did say "once, once, once, I can't win it twice" which derives from the same thought process, albeit most players would be thinking about chopping when a huge dog running it twice and not thinking about their chances of winning both boards.

I would give Harry some latitude in so far as he is not a pro player but at the same time when he looks back on how it panned out he should probably talk to Chris and acknowledge that his actions disadvantaged Chris in an accidental possible free rolling of him sense, and pay him something from the pot as compensation.

I wish I could and I wish I could ban you for doing so but alas,

As long as Harry changed his mind before the turn card is dealt, there's nothing shady. Though, it will annoy people.

Harry said "Once, once, once, once. I can't win twice." just as the camera shows the dealer turning the Q. It's very difficult to tell if Harry could possibly see the turn card.

super shady - he is certainly entitled to change his mind but if you say twice before seeing the hand then ask to see the hand and then change your mind - still super shady.

Either ask to see the hand prior to agreeing to run it twice or commit to what you say. Just another example of why you should really never reveal your hand before necessary. There are all sorts of angles people will try when it comes to running it twice.

Surprised that Harry would even make a stink about this considering he's a long time regular and the money hardly means much to him at these stakes.

Harry is a punk in this spot.

If the heart hadn't hit the turn, his mouth would have been zipped shut instead of sheepishly changing his mind about how many times he wanted to run it.

Reputation is very important in poker. I'd need to trade my rep for a lot more than the point he scooped with his grimy little hands.

It was a bit amateurish by Chris to table his hand before the turn. I don't know about you guys but I never table my hand in a cash game until the whole board is dealt as it does leave you more open to various angles, plus you may not want to show if you lose to protect your playing strategy.

Not tabling also lets you win sometimes when your opponent incorrectly mucks first, when you both have no pair and both miss a straight draw or flush draw, with you on the lower draw (happens more in PLO than NLHE), or your opponent misreads their hand and mucks.

Neither of these instances is an angle by us and I am not advocating at all trying to induce an opponent to incorrectly muck, but some players will naturally do this of their own accord because they are inexperienced, lose concentration or are tired.

I don't think there is anything shady or any angling concerning Harry (or anyone else) changing his decision after seeing his opponent's cards.

It can certainly be considered rude, inconsiderate, and jerkish.

But, there's nothing shady or angly about it because there's no possibility of gaining and edge in the pot being played.


It's only shady or angly if Harry changed his mind with knowledge of what the turn card was.

I was thinking kind of the opposite....

Yes, something more along these lines.