Oh ONE MORE POINT.

When you think about it, they don't really need to police everyone; just the people winning the most. If someone wants to set up a dream machine and half-use it to be a small winner, it's not ideal, but poker won't die. They could have just studied to become a small winner instead

Is there something that could be done with IP address privacy consent wavers? Like, "Hey every time you're in a session, someone in your house is on DeepSolve or GTOWizard. Stop doing that. Strike 1" type of thing?

The outcome of a chess game can often be determined by one or two critical moves. Poker is more like thousands of small edges adding up.

GTOW AI can already solve for whatever bet sizes were used in game.

Also, unlike chess, RTA-detection in poker relies on a large sample of hands. You have to measure aggregate stats. The cool thing about GTO Wizard is that they're building GTO reports, so you'll be able to measure things like total betting volume or how much EV you allocate to various lines.

Reports like this could potentially act as flags to identify superhuman play when analyzing a large sample of hands. It doesn't really matter if your particular dream machine uses 27%/71%/120% or 33%/66%, some of these stats are invariable between different solver algorithms and betting structures.

I also think it would be important to filter for the most important spots. For example, looking at just the stats of just the 30bb+ pots, or examining the stats of only 4BPs, etc. Perhaps filtering out hands that were played against obvious whales where we'd expect someone to deviate.

It would need to be suit isomorphic otherwise it's too easy to workaround.

Anything that improves game integrity is a good step forward.

Thanks for the info, I agree it could be a potentially helpful deterrent, and certainly better to have it than not have it. I’m still confused about the fact that a particular flop can be accessed by multiple users at the same time. Like, isn’t the flop QsQc5s likely being looked at by at least two GTOW users at the exact time that I type this?
“You’d be crazy to cheat knowing this exists” - ok I mean I respect your point but that is total hyperbole, it depends on sites’ willingness to enforce. Are specific sites on board for this?
I could imagine a scenario where a site starts getting flooded with GTOW users hand reports and kinda just wishes this hand checking feature didn’t exist. Some sites could be notoriously cheap on security, hard to work with, not take seriously poker software companies, etc
Thx

Well, the site I play on doesn’t provide HHs in any kind of time stamped or downloadable format.

Thanks. Yeah, detecting non-human play sounds very doable. You analyze Llinus and whoever else a whole bunch, and the limits of human play will become obvious. I'm still concerned that people can get overall frequencies relatively in line without relying on unintuitive combos a bunch, and they'll be competitors at the highest stakes. But maybe by comparing their bet/call/fold volumes, something gets flagged over aggregate.

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And I can forsee a situation where it's tough to hit-and-run 1knl+ over 12 months by cheating without a lot of questions about where you were playing previously and so on. Might need to rely on cross-site data sharing.

But yeah all of this is 100% going to take very specific choices from sites going forward

There are 22000 unique flops and 1755 strategically distinct flops. I would be very surprised if even a few of them were being double-solved every 5 minutes. Maybe AK6r - people seem to love solving AK6r idk why.

Regardless, it's easy to enforce narrower or wider search conditions if this is a problem.

If a site is completely unwilling to do anything about security, I would recommend not playing on that site. At some point operators need to step up and take responsibility.

Yes, we're already working directly with several major poker operators. Direct integration with their security teams. Statements from those sites will be published soon. Probably at the same time as when this tool goes live.

This came up in the wake of each of the Potripper and Nionio scandals at AP and UB, respectively, and I'm sure it surfaced after the Mike Postle thing at Stones. If the cheaters had played the game normally, then only peeked at Godmode in a few close spots, they would have been more devastating in the long run. Something something shearing a sheep vs. skinning it.

In fact, I often wonder how much cheating HAS gone undetected precisely because the perpetrators did things in a more measured way. That was a common theory during the AP and UB scandals, that cheaters were more intermittent for a long time, and only became more blatant when the clock began running out on U.S.-facing poker in the late 2000s.

Nice Avatar

Not that it's much of a consolation, but at least GTOW AI isn't super accurate. Solves run on PIO are still going to play better. However, doesn't do much to counter RTA.

These are not real issues. Chess sites have been doing this successfully for years. Obviously you don't ban someone for making a few great plays, you look for long stretches of near perfect play with no significant mistakes in big pots.

Not disagreeing cause I honestly don't know, but curious if you have data for that? The user friendliness is pretty sweet instead of how tedious tree building in Pio can be, but accuracy is important.

I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown/comparison of the two programs.

Only novice RTA Users will rely on GTOWizard and on top if that GTOWizard solutions have too many Betsizes atm. Industry Gold Standard are custom private solutions with simplified Betsizing(like 1 or 2 sizings) which get !automatically presented to the user by custom Software. Clicking through GTO Wizard manually and looking at 5 Betsizes is very 2016

@rakkazzar - that is what the GTOW AI does in a nutshell. It's called "custom solutions" in the program, different from GTOW's presolved library. Dynamic mode automatically sets whatever setup you want with the optimal bet sizes for that scenario

afaik, GTOW AI is plenty accurate.

Source: GTO Wizard AI Benchmarks

95 GB tree

This can been briefly discussed in PIO discord, but their way of comparing PIO's accuracy vs their approach is dishonest. It produces super-human outputs nonetheless, but not a fair benchmark

Funny I play poker every day and still plenty fish

yeah im just trying to say, this **** is nothing new, exactly this is going on for years already(not dynamic AI approximations but custom software displays presolved PIO solution for exact spots) in example Fedor Kruse case and it wasnt the pokersite catching Kruse, his roommates reported him.

Lol. If you aren't a winning player online these days, idk what to tell you.

https://blog.gtowizard.com/towards-a...ker-ecosystem/

https://www.poker.org/gto-wizard-tea...mbat-cheating/

Great move to work with operators, now people getting banned and they dont know what hit them, much love <3

Lol at thinking anything meaningful will be done about cheating in online pokers. We dont even know for sure the sites arent the biggest cheaters in all of poker. It happened many times before. Where there is easy money without regulation, many hands will always be in the cookie jar

I just want to offer up this diagram one more time where its most relevant:



In cypherpoker gto bots are used as an axiom. Its a necessary observation. I see the community as over time slow starting to see the importance of a missing equilibrium in their lexicon and strategy analysis frameworks. In this thread people are talking around it and so its illuminating it. If you structure the system as described above you will trend it towards the equilibrium (its also where the real profits are!).

To put cliffs notes to the orientation of the axiom... 'how many of you suffer from gto home game bots'?

Do you have a higher-resolution version of this picture? This one is unreadable.