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Old 01-16-2013, 08:16 PM   #1
NikTheGreek
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GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

here is the article:
http://www.4flush.com/online-casino-...no-games/11698

cliffs:
Quote:
- GTech, a subsidiary of Lottomatica, was caught rigging two online casino games. The rigged games were Reel Deal and Hi/Lo Gambler. They were then distributed to a number of respectable online casinos. These include Betfred and NordicBet.

- The games in question use cards to determine the outcome. A Spanish 21 deck is used. This means that tens are omitted but all other cards are in the deck. A player would expect that one card would be just as likely as another one to be drawn. This was not the case. While the free play game played correctly, the real money game would determine what outcome a player chose and then only give them a 48% chance of winning.

- This situation is very disturbing from a player standpoint. Boss Media, Spielo, Gtech, Lottomatica, or whatever you want to call the company that distributed this game intentionally created a game that someone knew was rigged or could be rigged. The only other explanation is that they simply did not test the game at all or completely fail to understand gambling laws and nobody in the chain of command did either. Even a small amount of testing would have proven a rigged game was being distributed. They have been silent to this point.
This is bad considering the company was recommended for an online poker license in Nevada last week
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:21 PM   #2
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

Internet casino gambling! Always fun...
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:24 PM   #3
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

Casino games are rigged? Who knew!

I actually worked at GTECH for almost 4 years. They are a good company, I'm sure there is a logical explanation. This would be similar to stars rigging their games, it just isn't in the company's best interest to intentionally fix the game.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:25 PM   #4
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

Just when you thought online gambling was safe
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:29 PM   #5
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

According to them it was a series of mixups, the last of which included the company making the game providing the betting sites with the wrong odds in the help file. Possible for sure. You'd expect them to say something like that on the surface for PR regardless of how it happened. But it's quite possible.

According to betfred they will be refunding everyone who played the game and lost. Let's see if they do that, mostly since they seem to have promised to.

Quote:
[...] Based on that we will be refunding all losses on the game from when the game was introduced to Betfred, and will be removing other Realistic Games provided by SPIELO G2 to complete a review of their configuration, help files and RTP and until we’re confident in their accuracy. Compensation payments will be issued within 7 working days.
I guess nordicbet promised too so we'll see.

And Bet365 is still running the game, with no plans to remove it, claiming their version works correctly. Which could be correct as well.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:30 PM   #6
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...-software.html
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:31 PM   #7
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

yeah I'll believe that when I see it
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:49 PM   #8
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

as usual, nothing gets done until players report the issue
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:50 PM   #9
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

Seriously, theres no way online poker can be rigged.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:13 PM   #10
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRybes View Post
According to them it was a series of mixups, the last of which included the company making the game providing the betting sites with the wrong odds in the help file. Possible for sure. You'd expect them to say something like that on the surface for PR regardless of how it happened. But it's quite possible.
Sorry I call BS on that unless they can explain what purpose there is in coding a gaming application that uses any odds but the correct ones and why they would make it so easy to change those odds.

In my mind, there is only one reason to code something like this, and that's to enable cheating.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:17 PM   #11
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

basic testing would have discovered this. Even a lady (that wants to play a break even game) was able to figure it out...
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:56 PM   #12
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuklearWinter View Post
I actually worked at GTECH for almost 4 years. They are a good company.
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:47 AM   #13
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by the orange crush View Post
Why do you think that your opinion- that of an outsider, and seemingly an uninformed one- is more right than someone who worked for the company for 4 years? What reason would he have to defend the company? He is a former employee, he has no reason to defend G4, other than if he actually believes that they are reputable.

Still butthurt about losing your 3.50 to online pit games?

PS

I apologize if your eyerolling meant something other than what I inferred it too.
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:49 AM   #14
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuklearWinter View Post
Casino games are rigged? Who knew!

I actually worked at GTECH for almost 4 years. They are a good company, I'm sure there is a logical explanation. This would be similar to stars rigging their games, it just isn't in the company's best interest to intentionally fix the game.
All the same over sightedness is completely inexcusable unless they launch a full investigation and refund asap
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:06 AM   #15
the orange crush
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsmith22 View Post
Why do you think that your opinion- that of an outsider, and seemingly an uninformed one- is more right than someone who worked for the company for 4 years? What reason would he have to defend the company? He is a former employee, he has no reason to defend G4, other than if he actually believes that they are reputable.

Still butthurt about losing your 3.50 to online pit games?

PS

I apologize if your eyerolling meant something other than what I inferred it too.
I have never spent a cent in an online casino. In fact I do no negative expectation gambling, just poker.

The real question is did someone at the company do this intentionally. I think they did and anyone who thinks they didn't is naive imo.

So a former employee calling them a "good company," what if he is just wrong? Maybe 96% of the company are good people, but someone there wanted to cheat people(and wrote it out in the code, send that code out to vendors, etc.), there is no other way to look at it imo.

Last edited by the orange crush; 01-17-2013 at 01:16 AM. Reason: obv cynic is obv
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:51 AM   #16
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

Do either of you have any reason why a rigged game being distributed is more likely to be deliberate rather than an accident?
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:01 AM   #17
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

just playing devil's advocate..

When you are making 4% on a game that should break even, there's a good chance you might eventually be losing 4%..
So it's well worth investigating... and someone would have contacted the distributor.

---------------
I was looking for betting limits on these games and I think the Reel Deal allows a $200 bet.. and there's a X-10,000 bonus possibility. ($2 million?) The potential loss is substantial, so you'd think they keep an eye on these machines...

i'm not sure I got all this right.. i think it's a 50/50 deal for real money.. etc..
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:05 AM   #18
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

OP's "Cliff's" leaves out what it was that actually made it rigged, and why some of you may be wondering why casino games, which are always presumed to be house-edge games, would ever be considered "rigged" for being 52/48 house edge games.

Also from the article:

Quote:
The games were advertised as paying players back 100% at several online casinos. This means that there was no house edge. Unfortunately for players, these games were not giving a fair deal.

Katie91 played both Reel Deal and Hi/Lo Gambler at Betfred. She practiced on the free play mode first and received a fair game. She then decided to play for real money. After tens of thousands of hands of Hi/Lo Gambler she decided that the game was ripping her off. She provided her logs to her brother who drew the conclusion that Betfred was offering a rigged game at their online casino. Her return on an advertised 100% payback game was about 96%. According to her brother’s research, the chances of this happening in a fair deal due to variance are over 1 in 154 million.
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:36 AM   #19
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

I haven't read the entire Casinomeister thread, but I've picked up a few things so far.

It sounds like a company called Finsoft was an intermediary in this, they were the ones doing the rigging, and they made money from the games.

Of course everyone knows that casino games favour the house - this is to be expected. But the allegation here is that at least one of the games was adaptive. No matter the strategy you chose by varying your bets, the software would adjust the results so that it would always come out to 52/48. There was no possibility of a player going on a lucky streak - no way to win even in the short term.

Nordicbet claims to have paid everyone back, as of January 12th:

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...tml#post533400

Edit to add: Actually, it would seem that Betfred and Bet365 has made things right as well, removing the games and compensating their players:

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...tml#post533815
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:46 AM   #20
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
Edit to add: Actually, it would seem that Betfred and Bet365 has made things right as well, removing the games and compensating their players:

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...tml#post533815
From the casinomeister OP's latest post - http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...tml#post534436, it appears betfred have not even paid her back yet.
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:54 AM   #21
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

surprising...
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:04 AM   #22
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperJez View Post
From the casinomeister OP's latest post - http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...tml#post534436, it appears betfred have not even paid her back yet.
Yes, you're correct. I believe they said it would take up to 7 business days, and yesterday was the 7th day.

Edit to add: Looks like I jumped to the Casinomeister thread too quickly - had I noticed who had written the article OP linked to, I might not have bothered. John's article seems to be a pretty good summation of what happened, as his articles usually are. I see he covered the adaptive game issue further down.

Last edited by Bobo Fett; 01-17-2013 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:09 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
I There was no possibility of a player going on a lucky streak - no way to win even in the short term.
Is that right though? Surely even if every wager was 52/48 in favour of the house it would be possible to go on a winning streak. Isn't this just like roulette?
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:20 AM   #24
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

i guess it depends on what someone considers a "streak"
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:27 AM   #25
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Re: GTech Caught Rigging Casino Games

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Originally Posted by UKZodiac View Post
Is that right though? Surely even if every wager was 52/48 in favour of the house it would be possible to go on a winning streak. Isn't this just like roulette?
Not if the software is programmed to provide the results of the roulette wheel based on whether you're up or down.

I mean, obviously you could be up the amount of a single bet, but that's it, unless it was programmed to allow you to be up some set amount before it started bringing you back down. Either way, your results are not being determined by randomness.
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