i got caught playing from the states in 2013 heres part of an email i had from stars

Thats fine but my point was we don't actually know how credible his 'proof' really is, while earlier you had already concluded that it was 'quite clear' Vayo was actually in Canada during the whole SCOOP.

You seem to be talking about domestic travel, while I am talking about international. A totally different kettle of fish. TomfooleryU has detailed his exact same experience with PS as Vayo. He solved it in no time as would be natural for someone with legitimate proof. When I first opened this thread the first thing that struck me is how easy it should be to prove whether your in a specific country or not, and why this has descended to court action, yet it seems most around here are ignoring the obvious and using it as an excuse to bash PS.

Yup, I'd agree.

If was the case that he VPN either before or after this SCOOP event was won, it's far more likely he VPN prior to SCOOP win (as taking the chance to VPN before moving the majority of the 700k out of his account would be very reckless). And if he did VPN at some point, it seems to be well within Stars right to seize any and all funds in his account, right?

My friend VPN for 5 months in late 2015 w the full knowledge that if he got caught, he was gonna lose everything he had on there. So that prob went into his calculus when deciding how much to put on.

TooCuriousso makes some good general points wrt to Stars essentially being the judge, jury, and executioner in all these types of related cases, unless one is willing to take a stand (which will cost them money) and possibly lose anyways. But you are biased against them for trying to "frame" you.

TC might have felt that Stars' methods of investigation were tough and that the scope of their investigation became far-reaching. I don't really disagree w your assertions, but as an impartial random person, I think their methods might be necessary. Stars/Amaya v. TC is analogous to US v. John Doe or Commonwealth of VA v. Jane Smith.

Stars determined you were to be charged w breaking TOS. They "arrested" you (held your funds hostage) and used their methods to try and break you. But you were not only not guilty, but innocent of the charges and so received your funds back (unless my reading comp is way off). But you still had to undergo the stress of the event, while Stars seemingly loses nothing for falsely accusing you. You prob don't get anything back for what they put you thru - not even a $22 Satty ticket. Just like you wouldn't get anything back from the gov't if you are arrested, have to pay legal fees and go thru an ordeal only to have them find you not guilty. The bar for charging someone w breaking a rule or law is much lower than the bar for gaining a conviction.

There are general similarities between the process Stars uses to investigate players suspected of breaking TOS and a civil or criminal proceeding. An institution, whether gov't or a company, will always have an easier time picking on an individual than the individual will have trying to stand up to Goliath. There's no way to undo that aspect.

There needs to be some system in place to deal w these matters and the gaming commission that Stars answers to hasn't expressed disapproval, through their actions, at the way Stars handles these investigations. Anyone patronizing their business is consenting to their rule of law.

Imo the real bad guys in this whole VPN/TOS thing are the people who legislated the law banning real money online poker in the US and the DOJ for randomly enforcing it some random day out of the blue 7 years ago.

Clearly the best way to prove he was actually in Canada during the entire tournament would be to petition border services in the USA for dates and times he entered the USA. I'm not sure they would readily give the information but perhaps a letter explaining why or a petition from a lawyer would work. If he is telling the truth then he should already have done this...or maybe Stars is the one telling the truth.

Gotta root for the players here so I hope Gordon wins this. The actual details are all speculation but he actually has a lot going for him here many legal aspects considered, and if this actually gets followed through on pain.in.the.ass. for Stars. Amaya +250

It doesn't matter. Stars is saying he vpn'ed at some point, not necessarily when he won the tournament

No. They are saying that because he vpn'ed at some point it casts doubt over his SCOOP location. All he is to do is prove he was irrefutably in canada on the day he won SCOOP. He obviously can't which is why he got a lawyer.

As I understand, if he used VPN anytime they have full right to confiscate all money found on his account? Who cares how much money is it, he was very irresponsible. And I hate AMAYA but I don't see a way he wins this ( nor that he should ). I mean it clearly says '' YOU CANT USE VPN EVER TO LOG IN '' and there is no stretch to it imo.

Link?

https://www.pokerstars.com/help/arti...ibited/134530/

Please stop posting in this thread - even Vayo doesn’t dispute that if he played in the US then he was just as ineligible to win the funds as if he was found to be underage. To equate it to cussing in the chat is simply idiotic.

I think that it doesnt matter if he played that tournament from US as long as he ever logged in from US which he did obv.

honestly dont get why people would side with stars. why are they going after his money? what do they care? who are they trying to impress, the fbi isnt looking, acr gives no ****s. wana make a show of it, bust someone for one hour of cash.

also, im sure im wrong. but imo, i just dont see how they think its their money anyway. the rake is theirs, the rest is between players. if that's legally wrong, whatever. i do strongly "feel" that, any legal justification that they can just take it, is just legal garbage.

I had stopped posting in this thread.

Though there is nothing idiotic about the post your are quoting. If Pokerstars can use their TOS to seize funds for x, then they can do it for y. <Using a VPN/Playing from the US/Cussing in the chat> are all violations of Stars' TOS. Only some combination of an arbitrary violation rating system and player outrage decide when accounts are closed and funds are seized.

Underage play is also different. That would be clearly not allowed in the IoM or Canada/USA. Playing poker online(VPN use) is not illegal in the US for adults outside of a few states like Washington/Utah, while an underage person couldn't legally signup for a service like pokerstars regardless of the TOS.

Pokerstars doesn't claim it's their money. If you'd read through this thread, you'd see that when PS seizes funds for violations of their TOS that do not give a player an unfair advantage, they donate the seized funds to charity. So PS is going to have to spend a lot of time, energy, and legal fees just so they can give Vayo's money to charity. You'd really think they'd do that just to screw a player over?

And the person they're trying to impress is states that Pokerstars is currently trying to get into. They've been faced with bad actor clauses in Nevada and possibly California once it comes around, so they want to do their best to show how squeaky clean they are. Legislators in New York, for instance, have been skeptical about how effective Pokerstars' location tracking is.

This

Pokerstars Blog: "Look! This American guy has won a lot of money in one of our tournaments!"
Pokerstars Security: "Don't tell anyone, but we've seized his winnings."
The USA: "That don't impress me much."

If anything, the case shows the US legislators should remain skeptical about Stars' location tracking. There wouldn't even be a legal case if they'd locked Vayo's account at the first sign of irregularities.

The geolocation of your IP depends on the database used and how frequently you update it. IPs frequently move across carriers, states, and countries. Generally in court you will need to subpoena the ISP who owned the IP at the time to verify the location. If using a VPN is agains the ToS as it appears to be they can certainly ban him, but he should certainly be able to go to court to contest the seizure of his winnings especially if PokerStars has an agreement with the US Department of Justice. I would believe US courts should then have jurisdiction (IANAL but have been consulted as an expert witness in cases where IPs have been used as evidence).

Pokerstars updates with maxmind (I believe) very frequently

Maxmind is cost effective, about 90% accurate if updated monthly. Probably higher distinguishing between most countries but between the US and Canada I'd guess closer to 90 than 100. I guess it'll be interesting to see if a settlement is reached.

This. Vayo is slime

Because people who break the rules are scum who have ruined the games and should be dealt with accordingly

I would not quite word it like this, and I don't know if it is exactly the case in this instance or not, but pretty much my sentiments too.

95% of the hate for stars on 2+2 is either because of diminishing rb for genuine grinders (which is fair enough I s'pose, if you are one such) or 2+2 'ers just being sheep.

Still by a mile my favourite site to play, and a big part of that is because they put up barriers to the cheaters... but then I don't have to make a living from it, so I guess I have a different perspective of what is and what is not important in a poker site.

A lot of the Stars hate is simply because of the condescending, arrogant, lying scum in their ranks. If they had not pulled the SNE scam and were more honest about their motives, they would get a lot less heat for maximizing profits.

If you selectively approve/dissaprove scummy behaviour you are scummy as it gets.