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Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize

05-10-2018 , 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomfooleryU
Important to remember the truth in legal matters is often somewhere between the opening volleys each side files. This is his legal team's crack at it - will be interesting to see Stars' response. Legal nuances (jurisdiction, etc.) aside, this seems like the main nut here. In 2018, it's easy to produce "proof" and docs. I'm a programmer and can very easily change the HTML on my bank's website to make it appear I have a billion dollars in my account. If I wanted to write a Chrome extension, I could even make it appear that way on page load without digging into the developer tools, such that I could "prove" to someone that I have the money for some deal by logging in and showing them my bank account balance when in reality I just spent 30 minutes writing code. "If the laws on your side, bang on the law. If the facts are on your side, bang on the facts. If neither are on your side, bang on the table." You generally don't reveal everything upfront but the fact that his team didn't elaborate on the "proof" they noted in the filing has me saying "let's wait til we see more." Of course, as someone who's had to cancel a flight to remain outside of the US for day 2 of a big tournament, I would be very surprised if he had satisfactory-to-Stars proof he was there the first 2 days and then flew back for day 3 or whatever.

Unless they settle quickly and quietly (as is probably best for all involved), we'll probably find out the quality of Vayo's proof he was in Canada. Limited data points here, but my hunch as someone who had bona fide proof that I did what he says he did and received my six figure withdrawal from Stars without much delay is that his "proof" is lacking. I'm also a no-name who wouldn't have produced such a PR disaster, so something is likely making them stick to their guns especially after this has undoubtedly been reviewed by everyone that matters at the company, not just some low-level support person.

A fight on jurisdiction often happens before any factual development on the merits. I predict that is what will happen here. That is an educated guess.

You obviously know a zillion times more than I do about how VPNs operate and so on. I suggest, however, that falsifying documentary proof is a fool’s errand. Sure, it’s possible. But if you get caught doing it, you’ll almost always lose your case.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Buble
There a law that prohibits Pokerstars from offering poker in the USA, to adhere to that law Stars has to effectively ban players from playing from the US. It isn't alleged that the player broke any law.
This has nothing to do with my questions. On what grounds did Pokerstars seize $700k? Cheating, for instance, would be clearly illegal at both the operator location(Isle of Man) and the player(Canada/USA).

Is using a VPN in IoM/Canada/USA illegal? Is playing poker illegal under Canada/US law? Otherwise, the only grounds for a seizure is violating Stars' TOS. If that's the case, what laws in Canada/USA make it illegal to violate a tax haven poker site's TOS?

There is no dispute that Pokerstars can ban your account for even suspecting any violations, but what gives them the authority to keep and redistribute your money absent of a crime?
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastLife
This has nothing to do with my questions. On what grounds did Pokerstars seize $700k? Cheating, for instance, would be clearly illegal at both the operator location(Isle of Man) and the player(Canada/USA).

Is using a VPN in IoM/Canada/USA illegal? Is playing poker illegal under Canada/US law? Otherwise, the only grounds for a seizure is violating Stars' TOS. If that's the case, what laws in Canada/USA make it illegal to violate a tax haven poker site's TOS?

There is no dispute that Pokerstars can ban your account for even suspecting any violations, but what gives them the authority to keep and redistribute your money absent of a crime?
What makes you think that you need to do something banned by law to have funds seized that were gained in vialotion of a service’s TOS? There is no such rule in either of the countries mentioned.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Buble
What makes you think that you need to do something banned by law to have funds seized that were gained in vialotion of a service’s TOS? There is no such rule in either of the countries mentioned.
The funds don't belong to Pokerstars. If violating their TOS was legal grounds to seize funds, then they could do it for anything, like cussing in the chat.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastLife
On what grounds did Pokerstars seize $700k?
Possibly 5.11: https://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/tos/

The prohibited jurisdictions are listed several times on their site
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Treesong
A fight on jurisdiction often happens before any factual development on the merits. I predict that is what will happen here. That is an educated guess.

You obviously know a zillion times more than I do about how VPNs operate and so on. I suggest, however, that falsifying documentary proof is a fool’s errand. Sure, it’s possible. But if you get caught doing it, you’ll almost always lose your case.
Yeah, and you prob know more on the legal side

What I'm wondering is if the suit is more of a ploy to get a settlement for 0<x<700k than an attempt to actually prevail on the merits given the jurisdictional issues, etc. that have been mentioned.

He might lose the case if he had bogus proof, but v possible his lawyers said "you won't prevail at trial, but right now if you don't do anything it's game over and you get $0..for $20-50k we can increase the chances you get some amount of it from 0% to 20-50%." When 250-700k is on the line, hard to imagine he wouldn't throw up the hail mary.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastLife
The funds don't belong to Pokerstars. If violating their TOS was legal grounds to seize funds, then they could do it for anything, like cussing in the chat.
Please name the law that governs to whom these funds belong? Absent of one the TOS apply, unless they are unreasonable. How this is judged depends on jurisdiction, but the principle is the same almost everywhere.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Buble
Please name the law that governs to whom these funds belong? Absent of one the TOS apply, unless they are unreasonable. How this is judged depends on jurisdiction, but the principle is the same almost everywhere.
Well, we can start with consumer protection laws for customer trusts...

Edit:
Jurisdiction also applies to both the provider AND the player, otherwise online poker would still be legal DUCY? See Black Friday

Last edited by LastLife; 05-10-2018 at 03:39 PM.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sect7G
I wish that were the case, but according to John Duthie (ept founder and head of Party Live) each minute customers pay 2 Euro and Stars takes 1 of them.
Do you know any casino that doesn't charge massage therapists to serve guests on the property? Keeping 50% of revenue isn't a bad deal.

Aria charges $200 for a 50 minute Thai massage. I'd be surprised if more than 10% of that stayed with the massage therapist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCuriousso1
For example they will lock/investigate player's accounts for things where they really aren't sure at all and are just going on a fishing trip for info. Things like unknown programs running, asking about people's relationships with one another, telling players to do interviews on webcam and record themselves playing. All while holding player's balances hostage and not telling what will happen if they refuse to cooperate.
If they didn't hold the players balance 'hostage' the next thread here is from somebody who complains that he got cheated on PokerStars and didn't get reimbursed because the culprit withdrew his balance before Stars could complete their investigation. Everybody with a half brain would immediately withdraw their bankroll as soon as Stars starts to ask questions. Guilty or not.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 03:46 PM
Does the Stars TOS require arbitration? If so, does Vayo strengthen his position by declining to arbitrate? This issue popped up in the Cary Katz lawsuit.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastLife
Well, we can start with consumer protection laws for customer trusts...
Yet the lawyer chose to make no such argument, but only a general claim that the money is Vayo's (see seventh claim for relief).

Quote:
Edit:
Jurisdiction also applies to both the provider AND the player, otherwise online poker would still be legal DUCY? See Black Friday
Not sure what you're trying to say here, but it can definitely be that a transaction/service is only prohibited for one of the parties involved, effectively outlawing it, but making only one party involved liable. E.g. a rule such as "it is forbidden to offer real-money poker" would outlaw poker altogether yet someone playing poker wouldn't breach that rule.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Buble
Love the part where Vayo asserts that he had to be in Canada during the whole tourney. It makes being a poker player sound like a really tough job

In particular, between May 20-22, 2017, Mr. Vayo played the SCOOP Event #1-High $1,050 No Limit Holdem, a grueling, intensive 3-day event. Mr. Vayo took first place, winning the event, on May 22, 2017. His winnings for the event totaled $692,460.

(...)

Mr. Vayo had submitted uncontroverted evidence – which Defendant did not contest – that he was in fact in Canada on the first two days of the SCOOP tournament, on May 20 and 21, and it would have been virtually impossible (not to mention inexplicable) for him to travel to the U.S. in the middle of an active, intensive, major tournament that required nearly around-the-clock play and focus, leaving time for only brief periods of rest and nourishment.
Found this part a bit weird. If he could provide proof for first two days, why not the third? What exactly did he provide?
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_utk
Does the Stars TOS require arbitration? If so, does Vayo strengthen his position by declining to arbitrate? This issue popped up in the Cary Katz lawsuit.
It isn't required arbitration but Stars has to honer a judgement by the Isle of Man Gambling Supervision Commission if someone decides to file a complaint there.

Quote:
Found this part a bit weird. If he could provide proof for first two days, why not the third? What exactly did he provide?
I wondered the same. It isn't mentioned in the lawsuit.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 04:06 PM
It is odd that there isn't proof of day 3. However, it'd be even stranger that he stayed in Canada to play the beginning of the tournament and chose to play only the final table in the US knowing that he could get caught and lose 6 figures.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by .isolated
It is odd that there isn't proof of day 3. However, it'd be even stranger that he stayed in Canada to play the beginning of the tournament and chose to play only the final table in the US knowing that he could get caught and lose 6 figures.
Unless someone else played day 3 for him...
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 04:31 PM
You're right to a degree. I gotta imagine the amount of money on the line would say that that other player would travel to Canada instead. It also stands to reason that if this other player's such an expert that he'd already be out of the US and playing the tournament himself.

In b4, "well the other player already busted WCOOP so he's not in Canada any longer" to which I'd say, it's way more likely that he'd sweat Gordon for a day or two than have Gordon go deep and then have Gordon come to him.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshThyme
It's perfectly fine to log into Stars from the US. You can withdrawal, not deposit, and lots of people still rail games or play home games with play chips and settle up after......
The above assertion, if true and people in the CD of California do so, may support a finding of personal jurisdiction over Rational/Stars in that District.

What did surprise me is the assertion, which I had not heard bfore, that Stars will send a cashout to a person resident in the US, (leaving NJ aside for the moment.) I found that surprising.

Does the Complaint allege that Vayo ever received cashouts to he US or requested this recent attempt to the US ?

Carry on.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by .isolated
You're right to a degree. I gotta imagine the amount of money on the line would say that that other player would travel to Canada instead. It also stands to reason that if this other player's such an expert that he'd already be out of the US and playing the tournament himself.

In b4, "well the other player already busted WCOOP so he's not in Canada any longer" to which I'd say, it's way more likely that he'd sweat Gordon for a day or two than have Gordon go deep and then have Gordon come to him.
It was the Phase event. Event #1.
The days weren't consecutive. It was the one Jeff Gross Twitched live and came 8th
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 04:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteBlow
It was the Phase event. Event #1.
The days weren't consecutive. It was the one Jeff Gross Twitched live and came 8th
The lawsuit makes it seem like they were consecutive for Vayo. Which is easily possible if you qualify for Phase 2 the day before it starts.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Buble
The lawsuit makes it seem like they were consecutive for Vayo. Which is easily possible if you qualify for Phase 2 the day before it starts.
That's true. If he did bag his day 2 stack the previous day and not a few weeks before, it'd help his claim I guess.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastLife
Well, we can start with consumer protection laws for customer trusts...

Edit:
Jurisdiction also applies to both the provider AND the player, otherwise online poker would still be legal DUCY? See Black Friday

They are very different issues. Most of the USA#1 consumer protection laws are state laws, while Black Friday was based on a federal statute. Most federal statutes do not operate extraterritorially, which is to say outside of USA#1.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_utk
Does the Stars TOS require arbitration? If so, does Vayo strengthen his position by declining to arbitrate? This issue popped up in the Cary Katz lawsuit.


The agreement calls for disputes to be heard in Isle of Man courts under Isle of Man law. The agreement doesn’t call for arbitration.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Treesong
They are very different issues. Most of the USA#1 consumer protection laws are state laws, while Black Friday was based on a federal statute. Most federal statutes do not operate extraterritorially, which is to say outside of USA#1.
There was no federal law against offering online poker. There is and was a federal law that criminalizes a violation of state laws against offering online poker. There are federal laws against using the banking system to process transactions proceeds arising from any illegal activity.

Since Vayo insists he did not play from within the US, he is hard pressed to invoke a consumer protection law short of possibly claiming he was induced to travel to Canada to play .... (which allegations may state a valid claim, I have no idea.)

That Vayo was able to travel outside the US to play poker seems to weigh against his avoidance of any agreement to bring disputes in the IOM. ( I traveled to the IOM about a month ago from LA; the trip was boring, and requires a change of planes .... There are plenty of local counsel available, although they don't run ads on television.)

Not sure about the Lanham Act claim, although Stars apparently did use Vayo's image for marketing .... does that rise a claim ?

(If not, does Stars post tourney advertising, using Vayo, raise a claim for equitable estoppel .... giving both sides a face-saving way to settle "fairly" ?)

Stay tuned. There seems likely to be a motion to dismiss, on jurisdictional grounds among others, to be filed by the Defendant; however, I am not up on litigation processes in federal civil matters.

What I do know is that the parties may end up settling, sooner or later, the treble damages claim notwithstanding.
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 08:13 PM
why did it take stars this long to make t a problem?
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote
05-10-2018 , 09:35 PM
could be coincidence, could be planned timing only they can know for sure
Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For 0k SCOOP Prize Quote

      
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