Based on what facts?


Their position is he can't prove he was in Canada when he won. Something that should be very easy to irrefutably prove if he really was there, but he hasnt been able to do it. A 2+2 brainiac like yourself should be able to figure out why.

Then surely the fact that a VPN may of been used is not enough of a case. Surely the onus is on the accuser?

I am struggling to see the upside for Stars on this. Assuming the win, they have to redistribute the funds as its now very public that the money was not won. If they lose they look like total tools. Either way, they end up with a huge legal bill. And for what? Is this really an attempt to demonstrate to the US regulators that they are trying be good and should be considered for a licence? Will that even get noticed or compensate for previous bad behavior?

As has been pointed out before:

In cases of eligibility, Stars donates recovered funds to charity.
In cases of cheating, Stars distributes recovered funds to the players.

Of course, whether or not Stars uses the charity donations as a tax write off is another matter entirely.

Based on paragraphs 10 and 58-60 in the complaint. Vayo claims to have sent proof that he was in Canada for at least part of the tournament and argues that it is not reasonable to believe he was traveling back and forth between Canada and the US in the middle of a tournament.

Also LOL Stars in claiming Vayo had 56000 hands from the US when Vayo played only 8000 hands total during that same period.

Vayo loses on jurisdictional grounds here though.

Did Vayo have the proper documentation to enter Canada to play poker?

Is that considered "working" in Canada and if so, did he have the proper visa to do so?

He may get the money and be banned from Canada as part of the deal if it comes out that he routinely went across the border to "work"?

Taking everything Gordon says at face value, it looks like the reason for the whole situation is 5 minutes (USA "located") VPNing from France whilst he was logged into his Pokerstars account, which then got flagged up at Pokerstars Security as looking like he was playing from the USA.

If these are the facts above, then in addition to him providing all of the evidence that he was in Canada during SCOOP, I would suggest that he also needs to prove that he was in France during that 5 minute period of VPNing. He should also ask his lawyers to request comprehensive data on exactly which dates and times Pokerstars records show/allege him being logged in from the US/(US VPNing). If the data agrees with Gordon's own account of it being only in France for 5 minutes then any reasonable judge, panel or jury would award in his favour but I doubt they would award damages on top and would possibly order that he pays Pokerstars their legal costs out of the award because he has admitted that he made an error, albeit for only 5 minutes.

So it is obviously very unlucky for him, because he has been so, so careful not to log in from the US to check balances, do player transfers or even rail, but that one 5 minute slip up in France was technically in breach of Pokerstars TOS by the looks of it, if indeed he happened to be logged into his Pokerstars account while watching the video.

If it is just that 5 minutes and both parties agree that it was then a sensible option for both would be an out of court settlement as it would save Gordon money if the settlement was say ~10% below the actual tournament payout because this would be way lower than his and their legal costs combined, and it would be enormously beneficial for Pokerstars from a PR point of view to settle this all amicably.

they are not the facts, as TomfooleryU is not holla@yoboy

I have been told by former supernova elites that usa vpn'ng is not hard at all, if you pay enough it should work fine. I guess it did screw up though.

Having not even read the whole thread the guy was a tool at the wsop main event, and makes sense he would vpn instead of simply relocating for scoop because he thinks he is the shizzle.

This is the one time I would side with amaya.

Assertions in a Plaintiff's complaint are not 'facts.' They may serve as the basis for future evidentiary showings that corroborate the assertion, but they are not FACT. Otherwise a Respondent need not ever reply since the Court would simply say "well, hell...he had his attorney put all these words on paper and they will be taken at face value" as the gavel banged down...

Did you stop and consider why Vayo could not provide proof he was in canada the whole time rather than just 2 days? Am I going crazy here or should it be very very easy to prove you are in a friggin country at a specific time in this day and age? You guys keep ignoring the border and immigration papers, when it seems that a few other members here have confirmed something needs to be stamped or copied every time they pass the border. You surely can't pass back and forth between the 2 countries without some verification?

In the complaint there is no specification of the 'proof' Vayo submitted to PS. It could have been dodgy and not irrefutable. Some immigration paperwork would easily make PS's position untenable. So where is it?

I guess this ends my fledgling legal career then.

Pointed out? I don't see Pstars publish this info to the dollar. I've heard them make reference of it but why should players trust them.
Do they emphasize that they rake the massage girls at Live events? If there's a dollar to be made then they'll grab it.

PokerStars donates every dollar to charity, but to them charity either starts at home or they make a stated contribution to the Human Fund.

Yeah, I don't believe them either even though I'm rooting against Vayo.

Autocorrect fail?

I wish that were the case, but according to John Duthie (ept founder and head of Party Live) each minute customers pay 2 Euro and Stars takes 1 of them.

People who speak with certainty about what Stars does with obscure money is ridiculous. It's like saying Bazov 3 years ago couldn't be a crook because Stars is regulated etc. Scams and shady stuff is all over this business. No one gets an assumed pass.

It isn't banned. But if you're stupid enough to use a VPN while using Stars that shows you in the US you shouldn't be surprised that triggers questions.

You guys seriously believe this is all an elaborate, sneaky cash grab that they rub on their titties (but I assume do not report in the released financial statements)?

I only ask because if that is the belief then there really is little point debating whether Stars should be able to confiscate money from a player if they were caught playing in the USA (even if before the event), because that would be secondary to them just lying in wait to pounce and do a cash grab in a way that really looks bad.

If all this guy did was log in with a VPN from France for 5 minutes at some point (seriously, anyone believe that?) then it would be insane for Stars to take these winnings. However if he actually played quite a bit from an area he should not (via a VPN) then he compromised his account at that point, and how is it fair to those who follow those rules (even if one thinks they are stupid rules) to allow this person to not be punished when it happened?

To an extent the punishment should balance with the severity of the "crime," but we have no idea how much this person violated the rules to properly make that assessment, and that complaint seemed to avoid those important specifics as it spent time ginning up other areas with much less specific data and proof.

If one of Stars’s goals is to provide a good deterrent for VPNers this policy of examining big winners is a good one imo

Love the part where Vayo asserts that he had to be in Canada during the whole tourney. It makes being a poker player sound like a really tough job

In particular, between May 20-22, 2017, Mr. Vayo played the SCOOP Event #1-High $1,050 No Limit Holdem, a grueling, intensive 3-day event. Mr. Vayo took first place, winning the event, on May 22, 2017. His winnings for the event totaled $692,460.

(...)

Mr. Vayo had submitted uncontroverted evidence – which Defendant did not contest – that he was in fact in Canada on the first two days of the SCOOP tournament, on May 20 and 21, and it would have been virtually impossible (not to mention inexplicable) for him to travel to the U.S. in the middle of an active, intensive, major tournament that required nearly around-the-clock play and focus, leaving time for only brief periods of rest and nourishment.

Pretty much

Also what law(s), both IoM and Canada/USA, did the player using a VPN violate that justifies a seizure? Is violating PokerStars' TOS a crime at both the location of the operator(IoM) and player(Canada/USA)? If there were laws broken, why did Pokerstars seize the funds and not the legal authorities?

There is no doubt that Pokerstars can close your account for any reason. Though short of claiming your poker balances don't belong to you(Pokerstars has a player trust), I don't how see the money can be taken. I'd rather have been playing from the US in this case.

There a law that prohibits Pokerstars from offering poker in the USA, to adhere to that law Stars has to effectively ban players from playing from the US. It isn't alleged that the player broke any law.

His poker balance consisted of a win which he couldn't prove was won from Canada, while using a VPN that showed him in the US recently. I'm not saying Stars is right, but depending on information we don't know I can definitely see how the money can be taken.

Sounds like SCOOP is like a North Korean work camp

Thanks for the mildly condescending civil procedure lecture, but I’m generally aware of what a complaint is. The complaint asserts facts that Vayo claims to be able to support and corroborate. A jury is certainly entitled to disbelieve factual assertions or choose between competing facts. But for the moment at least, these are all we have to go on and we can assume them to be true.

I disliked what I saw of Vayo’s personality during the WSOP coverage, but personal feelings about him aren’t at all relevant for analysis of his legal claims.

Important to remember the truth in legal matters is often somewhere between the opening volleys each side files. This is his legal team's crack at it - will be interesting to see Stars' response. Legal nuances (jurisdiction, etc.) aside, this seems like the main nut here. In 2018, it's easy to produce "proof" and docs. I'm a programmer and can very easily change the HTML on my bank's website to make it appear I have a billion dollars in my account. If I wanted to write a Chrome extension, I could even make it appear that way on page load without digging into the developer tools, such that I could "prove" to someone that I have the money for some deal by logging in and showing them my bank account balance when in reality I just spent 30 minutes writing code. "If the laws on your side, bang on the law. If the facts are on your side, bang on the facts. If neither are on your side, bang on the table." You generally don't reveal everything upfront but the fact that his team didn't elaborate on the "proof" they noted in the filing has me saying "let's wait til we see more." Of course, as someone who's had to cancel a flight to remain outside of the US for day 2 of a big tournament, I would be very surprised if he had satisfactory-to-Stars proof he was there the first 2 days and then flew back for day 3 or whatever.

Unless they settle quickly and quietly (as is probably best for all involved), we'll probably find out the quality of Vayo's proof he was in Canada. Limited data points here, but my hunch as someone who had bona fide proof that I did what he says he did and received my six figure withdrawal from Stars without much delay is that his "proof" is lacking. I'm also a no-name who wouldn't have produced such a PR disaster, so something is likely making them stick to their guns especially after this has undoubtedly been reviewed by everyone that matters at the company, not just some low-level support person.

I don’t think you understand very much about complaints in USA#1. There is no requirement for Vayo to articulate whatever detailed proof he may or may not have about where he was.

I can easily imagine a circumstance in which I can’t prove for a definitive fact where I was on a given day. I’m on a trip next week where I’m in a hotel for two days, then staying with friends and relatives for two more, and if I win a couple of rounds of CCR, I’ll likely have zero credit card receipts for a couple of days in question, during which Pokerstars could claim I was in some other location.

For the moment, we should assume the facts articulated in the complaint are true. It is somewhat rare and almost always damaging for a plaintiff to articulate false facts in a complaint.

I’ve got no dog in this fight. Vayo isn’t all that likeable and I’m skeptical about Stars generally. My own speculation is, as someone posted above, is that Stars feels compelled to come down hard on these issues because it wants back in the USA marketplace. But my guesses as to Stars’s motivations are purely guesses and no more.