Does a violation of TOS provisions at other times and in other ways justify denial of his tourney win? That seems a reach to me.

If the behaviour at the time of the tournament win matches the behaviour at the time of his slip up giving away his location to be in America, and he somehow can't prove he was in Canada at the time of the win I would say the burden of proof is on him

Right. I've read it all twice, which is clearly more times than Gregory Fayer or he would've realised that his client is not Mr Gordon. He's a world-renowned professional poker player, don'tcha know.

Is it normal for so many extras to be bolted onto a lawsuit?
I thought this was about whether or not Mr Vayo was or wasn't in Canada. Maybe it should be called a lawsuite
We've got allegations of false advertising, image rights violations, concealment of terms, we've even got one accusing Stars of not paying out the full guaranteed prizepool for a tournament series that only started 4 days ago! I'm pretty sure SCOOP 2017 smashed the total series guarantee too.

This just seems like throwing 10 darts at once in the hope of hitting a bullseye.

FWIW (nothing), I believe Vayo won the tournament legitimately but he is being horribly let down by his legal counsel and it may well end up costing him.

It is not at all uncommon for pleadings in California to be horribad...some of this is because of how screwed up that State is in the first place and some of it is just plain terrible plaintiff's counsel.

As to multiple causes of action, not uncommon in ANY jurisdiction in the States. You basically get one bite at the apple and anything not raised is often deemed to have been waived. You see this same principle in criminal law on the appellate efforts...anything not objected to at trial is often considered to have been punted even when the trial attorney was crappy. On appeal, you can try and raise ineffective assistance of counsel, but THAT is the Hail Mary of legal pleadings given that the bar is set so high.

An American MTT player got caught vpn'ing? Who would have thought!?!?!?

Skip Bayless should show him how he did it back in the day without getting caught for his horses.

His counsel should empathize that Stars only checks id/vpn etc after big cashes or cashouts. They don't care about violations prior to this. Revenue.

Except this isn’t true

They've already said that this is a logical time to kyc. My 1st 10k score was when they asked me for papers and I had an active account for 5+ years prior to that. They are freerolling players... Pure and simple.

The safest time would be to check ID prior to depositing... But that would be bad for business.

How would an ID check change what happened here, this guy is world renowned.

I get the Stars is evil - boo Stars schtick, but I don't see the logic of this being a revenue source for them (even if one believes they do it for the charity receipt to rub on their titties). Is the belief that Stars sits in waiting for the perfect Gotcha moments for guys like this? Why? This isn't Lock Poker (although they did not bother waiting for Gotcha moments). Does Stars have a special income line in their publicly released statements where this is placed (with the title of MUHAHAHA)?

I doubt this guy accidentally played a 5 buck hyper SnG once on a VPN by mistake, and realistically (fair or not) he should definitely know the rules about playing in the US with a VPN. Others have posted that they have followed those rules for years, so even if you think those rules are stupid (which is a fair position) the fact that some violate them while others do not makes it unfair to those that follow the rules if nothing is done.

This is a legitimate issue, but the whole Stars is freerolls/stealing as a revenue source is a non starter that actually distracts from the issue while allowing people to vent how Stars are meanies.

If this guy played in the US with a VPN then he put his account at risk, and players of his level should know and appreciate those risks.

According to their TOS it does, though TOS aren't the it and all in a case like this.

False advertisement is a reason treble damages can be awarded. Hence all these extra's besides just making the point of unfairly withholding his payout. It seems like the weaker part of his claim though, so more likely that he gets his payout without the treble damages. But it doesn't hurt trying if you're suing anyway.

He did. He basically argues Stars is a scam operation that let's many US players play while withholding large payouts to winners because they can never prove they weren't in the US over a long timeframe.

Think the problem will be that the odds are Stars has the proof to back those they banned for the most part, so it is not like they spin a roulette wheel of Americans and ban them randomly.

If this guy used a VPN (which seems pretty obvious he did) to play on Stars then he compromised his account. The timing and severity of their choice is certainly open to debate (ie: was it a prior act - should that be punished like this etc), but I doubt he was chosen at random because his last name has 10 points of value in Scrabble and he was American - odds are it was for a specific act he had done in which he got caught.

How Stars handles that (if that is the case) is a valid question because it would be insane if they confiscated $500,000 from a player because they played a $1 MTT 5 years ago in the US, but it cannot be ignored that if this player used a VPN to play regularly then he is the one who put his account at risk, and others who play the types of games he does have made it clear they are very careful to avoid ever doing that, so how is it fair to them if this guy gets a get out of VPN jail free card?

KYC and determining your location are not the same thing.

Also KYC is generally sought at whatever contact points are available. The most common would be withdrawals but that will include account investigations.

Vayo using a bit of kettle logic here: he never VPNed, but if he did it was by mistake, and if it wasn't by mistake, then it wasn't during the big SCOOP tournament. Pretty standard in legal circles but still can weaken your case.

I would love to read this famous Frigate Ltd vs Damia. I tried for awhile in vain to find anything about it. The previously linked to Electrograph vs NEC though was enlightening. Not sure how either of the 3 cases they lay out are satisfied though. Going in reverse order:
(3) seems to imply that a venue change is in order if exclusive jurisdiction would deprive American-stlye due process (I may be grossly misunderstanding it though). That doesn't seem to be the case here seeing as Manx law is well-established and is under the auspices of the UK legal system.
(2) says that a venue change is in order if it's too difficult for the plaintiff to sue in the exclusive jurisdiction. That definitely does not seem to apply here as Vayo is a wealthy poker pro. I've heard of this clause being used in cases in which in order to sue in a certain jurisdiction, a hefty down payment is needed (see Austria v. Altmann).
(1) is the closest that could apply, I'd expect. I could hear an argument that Pokerstars has too much bargaining power in making the TOS. I don't think that'd hold too much water, but you never know.

At the end of the day, this isn't Pokerstars asking for exclusive jurisdiction in some random, arbitrary place for a legal advantage. While many companies do incorporate in Isle of Man for its favorable business regulations, Pokerstars really is headquartered there. And we're not talking about some kangaroo court in a jurisdiction that harbors grey/black market sites like some Caribbean nations.

One other question I have is if Vayo has filed a complaint with the UK Gambling Commission. I'd think they'd have jurisdiction since Pokerstars falls under their auspices.

As for the burden of proof question, once Pokerstars has shown that a player is known to play from a banned jurisdiction with a VPN, then the onus does fall on the player to show for a specific tournament that they weren't in that jurisdiction.

I wonder if Vayo does have any concrete evidence that he was in Canada. Even stuff like house rentals, plane tickets, dinner/grocery receipts, witness testimony, geolocation data from his phone, etc.

To corroborate what a number of posters have said about Pokerstars donating seized funds to charity, see this instance from 2011: http://www.bankrollmob.com/poker-new...harity-518-402. I can't find anywhere that says its an official policy, but it's safe to assume they'll continue this practice. I see 0 incentive for Pokerstars to seize Vayo's funds unless he really did violate the TOS. Even if Pokerstars wins, their brand will be hurt.

The fact that I already feel pretty suspicious of Vayo just from his filling does not make me feel good for his case. I look forward to seeing Pokerstars' response.

How was this VPN malfunctioning?

He could be using a VPN while in Canada, to play on another Canadian IP - some people do this for security. So was this VPN malfunctioning and giving him a Californian IP at random times?

Or does he use a Cali based VPN to spoof his IP for things like Netflix, etc and the VPN simply "malfunctioned" by turning itself on at random times?

Or did he accidentally turn on the VPN after/before play while logged into the Stars' client giving him a Cali IP until either the client or the VPN was terminated?

It goes to show, that for anyone who professionally plays reasonable stakes $200NL+ and higher stakes SNGs/MTTs that they should have a completely independent computer & internet connection strictly for poker. Nothing none poker related (email, skype, youtube, spotify, etc). Helps vastly improve the security of your poker accounts & funds, and less likely chance of VPNs malfunctioning

Vayo confirmed busto.

Maybe I am missing something but couldn't this have been solved by Vajo very quickly and easily by simply providing the immigration paper work verifying he was in Canada at the time of SCOOP? From reading the thread there is a requirement for some sort of registration when crossing the border, so the fact Vajo hasn't done this means hes basically guilty, let alone that hes admitted to using a VPN on stars when he knows its against TOS. He seems exactly like the type of worm who would have been vpning into stars for years anyway. Busted boy.

This is weird. Surely immigration documentation would have indeed make it inconceivable, so the question is what evidence did he actually provide.

I see what you're saying, but when you say shown, what do you mean by that--what level of proof or confidence do they need to where the burden then is on the player to demonstrate otherwise? What if the probability of the VPN actually ****ing up was 10% over a long duration of usage (not saying that's likely)?

For example they will lock/investigate player's accounts for things where they really aren't sure at all and are just going on a fishing trip for info. Things like unknown programs running, asking about people's relationships with one another, telling players to do interviews on webcam and record themselves playing. All while holding player's balances hostage and not telling what will happen if they refuse to cooperate.

What if he logged in by habit, and just railed games, would that be enough to warrant him having to prove his location at any time/and or sue them for his balance?

Also I think it's bull**** they can use far past violations (lets say you did something 5 years ago) of TOS to suddenly investigate/confiscate balances after a big score.

This isn't directed at you but I really don't understand why more people aren't concerned with PS's investigating practices and how they are held accountable for when they abuse their position of power.

Long story short?


They think he wasn't in Canada? That's going to cost him 700k?

Wow

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk

lol my thoughts as well. Guy was the 2nd biggest tool next to Griffin at the FT of the ME so you know, karma and all.

Saving the good titles for the Supreme leader?

It's perfectly fine to log into Stars from the US. You can withdrawal, not deposit, and lots of people still rail games or play home games with play chips and settle up after.

That isn't true at all, Stars will catch you very fast if you do something wrong no matter if you're winning, losing, or grinding micros. They are also very, very good at it and as TC mentioned, they can see an absurd amount of info on your computer.

Pokerstars is GDPR compliant. If you want to know what info they are collecting, it's in their privacy policy. If you want to know what information they hold on you, ask for it...they have 40 days to give it all to you.

There is zero chance that Stars will not follow GDPR to the letter.

Or for that matter any legal gambling site operating in UK/Europe.

Or, if it's your gig, any legal crypto company either...

Couple of posters on reddit made point Stars have to come down hard here as its the US - an enormous potential market where they've already been in legal trouble.

As regards VPN what happens is if you disconnect from servers at one location the company routs it to another to prevent downtime. So the physical address switches to locations 100s of miles away in seconds.

On pokernews they state that Stars have given away seizures from similar cases to charity - will they do same this time? Will be interesting.

I'm an American citizen but spent most of 2017 traveling between ~25 countries, ~40 cities and spending a lot of time between Mexico and Canada. At one point I traveled between ~6 countries over the course of a couple weeks and Stars security temporarily restricted my account for a couple days during SCOOP until I explained it. "We see you've logged in from ~6 diff countries plus the US (where I hadn't been but had VPNed once for ~5min to watch a restricted YouTube video while I was in France), can you please explain? VPNs aren't in and of themselves banned, but they are if you're trying to mask your true location." I responded with a picture of all my boarding passes (which I'd kept partially in case this happened) and passport stamps, told them I actually was in those countries other than the US and hadn't been in the US since <date far preceding period in question>, and could also offer up Airbnb/hotel receipts if needed, and they had me back in business rather quickly. I also went overboard in pinging support before traveling to places where I wasn't sure if Stars can be played to ask, and if they said it was a banned country I wouldn't log in from there either. It's annoying that we're in this spot and I resent the US govt a little more every time I'm in the US for business but then have to leave for the weekend so I can play a few tournaments, but it's worth going overboard to protect yourself.

That temporary restriction during last SCOOP was enough to make me never log into my Stars acct from the US for any reason when I'm there just to avoid triggering anything since I don't play super regularly and don't want to be impeded during periods when I do want to play. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Stars terms prohibit not just playing from the US, but also doing any p2p transfers or anything while there, so it's worth being careful. I record my balance before I leave poker-friendly countries for trips to the US so I don't need to login for that, I use the Stars emails to confirm I've received p2p transfers done while in the States rather than logging in to confirm, I request a play audit before leaving so I can do any tax/other calculations needed, and I just stay logged out when I fire up the Stars client to check schedules.

fwiw, I also won one of the larger WCOOPs last year and as an American who was legitimately playing from outside the country and who does my poker-related banking outside the US, they gave me no real problems other than requesting another round of documentation to confirm I owned the bank accts, etc. since I was making a large withdrawal.

When I go to Mexico I use the San Ysidro pedestrian crossing and documentation is pretty loose there - I typically get the visa but there was one time the line was just slightly backed up and they just waved us all through after a cursory glance at our passports as we walked past without stamping them/giving us visas. Canada is obviously a different story and I've always gotten the full questioning there, so if they do have him on a US IP *during SCOOP* and he can't produce the documentation..that's kind of dead to rights imo as others have said.

I don't care much for Vayo, think hes a bit of dick for the way he treating kassouf (not that I care for kassouf much these days either), effectively colluding with other players at the table to bully and exaggerate what happened.

However, what is happening here seems wrong to me. My first question is;

Is VPN'ing explicitly banned? If you were in a legal jurisdiction and VPN'ing for other reasons, is that actually banned by stars? I assume VPN's have other legitimate reasons to be used not related to poker?

Not explicitly banned - here's what they sent me. Now that I'm re-reading this, worth noting that their "reason to believe I *may be* hiding my true location" is most likely just some crude logic in their systems checking for an abnormally high number of locations in a given time period. I hadn't been in the US at all when this was sent, and hadn't used a "true" VPN ever - only a Chrome extension for watching a YouTube video once for 5 minutes.

Your Stars Account has been temporarily suspended as part of a routine review.

It has come to our attention that you are connecting to our site via a VPN, proxy, or similar service. Whilst we do not prohibit the use of such services, we have reason to believe that you may be hiding your true location through them.

During the last past month, we noticed you have accessed to your Stars Account from United Kingdom, France, United States of America, Sweden, Australia, etc. Could you please explain us the reason?

All players are required to provide accurate account information as per our Terms of Service:

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/tos/

Please be advised that, on occasion, we may be required to amend the Terms of Service. It is your responsibility to keep up to date with any changes made to the Terms of Service.

In order to verify your current location, we would request you access your account without use of the current VPN/proxy you have recently been using, via the computer you used for your most recent login.

As part of our security procedures, please also provide the following documentation:

a. a clear scan of your driver's license (front and back), or any other valid government issued picture ID; and

b. A copy of a recent utility bill clearly showing your full name, *the address listed in your Stars Account* and statement date. In lieu of a utility bill, we will accept a phone bill, bank statement, payslip or insurance bill which includes your full name, current address and statement date. Please note that we will not be able to accept personal letters.

Please scan or make a digital photo of the requested documentation and send it to security@starsaccount.com

Thank you for your cooperation.

Regards,


Amelie
Stars Security