Border has changed a bit, but yea, I too don't have any stamps in my passport for Mexico and I've been here in Rosarito full time since 2011.



@needing a passport to enter US discussion:
-Just last week was with someone with a normal Cali DL that was literally tore into 2 along with their birth certificate and we were at window (driving from Mexico into the US, dealing with US customs ofc) for <2 mins. She got the 'it's time to join the passport club miss!' talk as her DL was handed back to her

-Have had 2 other friends have their passport + wallet etc stolen and they literally possessed 0 identification when crossing from Mexico back into the US. It took a bit longer, they were basically sent to secondary to have their fingerprints ran to confirm their identity (as far as I remember/understood). They too were at the border dealing with customs for a very small amount of time, no issue past that really. More or less, a natural born US citizen cannot be denied entry at a US border entrance. They can of course be detained, questioned etc, just like anyone else could. If you're flying somewhere and you're on the no fly list, that obv could lead to something, speaking @ walking/driving border.

-My diesel mechanic's parents had their passports+visas+wallet+purse stolen while they were down here visiting their son. They were at the border for a few hours, but even they, Mexican citizens that have lived in the US for 20ish years now, gained entry into the US without any form of ID on their persons

No, it should matter what PS can prove. And the burden of proof should be on them, not the player to prove their innocence. Otherwise they can just take people's balance when they suspect there's a 50%,75%,90% whatever chance someone broke the TOS. I am not interested in specifically matters relating to playing from banned locations, nor whether he actually was in fact in Canada. I am interested in preventing PS from strong arming people to cooperate in their investigations, or seizing people's balances without extremely strong proof. Then having people have to sue them in the Isle of Man to get a chance at their $ back. What's PS's punishment when they take an action too lightly? Nothing? Oh ok here's the $ back that was yours?

Their investigations are basically scaring people into jumping through a bunch of hoops in order to hopefully get their balance back, without saying the wrong thing or "incriminating" themselves. I've seen it countless times, and I personally took huge issues with how the investigation of my account went.

While you’re playing poker? Also wouldn’t it be against Stars TOS regardless?


Stars: We caught you using a VPN.

Vayo: I was using a VPN, but it was malfunctioning.

Wat.


Also looks like Vayo is taking the “even if I played in US at some point it wasn’t during the tourney” line (57).

Just seems very likely he’s guilty here, though can’t really blame him for taking a stab to try and get the money back.

No it isn't. Stars can't have it both ways while they operate in several grey jurisdictions which require a VPN or mirror sites to access the stars website as its blocked by ISPs.

Agree that the burden of proof should be on stars to prove he was playing from the USA not that Vayo has to prove he wasn't. No idea how it works from a legal standpoint though.

Yes you are right. 57. doesn't look good for him.

But equally he and other US players I would imagine routinely log in while in the US to do player transfers, check their balance, look at schedules and reg comps, if not actually play comps while in the US, which if so looks bad for Pokerstars because it would mean that they are routinely turning a blind eye to it.

This doesn't make Gordon Vayo innocent as such, but it would if true raise questions about Pokerstars' compliance with US government rules, as turning a blind eye to something or not noticing a little bit might be acceptable but knowingly turning a blind eye to something on a continuous basis is a different matter.

That is unless I have got it all wrong? Maybe you are allowed to log into your Pokerstars account on US soil but not play, but it seems unlikely that you would be allowed to log in, not play, but make deposits, withdrawals or money transfers while on US soil.

Are players who for example travel to Canada for SCOOP or WCOOP and are backed or do swaps doing all financial transactions before they return home to the US or do they think oh I'll work out all the numbers when I'm back home and do the payouts to investors then. Similarly, if they receive backing, do both backers and the player they are backing both at the same time have to be in a non US country for the transfer to be legit under US law?

Stars is doing an excellent job at making the company look bad

Yes, I was denied entry into Canada in 2007 for being with Joe Sebok. After Amanda Leatherman and I ditched him at some run down motel in Buffalo they let us into the country.

You made me google.

Admittedly that isn’t directly from the TOS which doesn’t seem to explicitly mention VPN. But the claim is that he was operating from Canada which is hardly a grey jurisdiction.

I have a feeling that Gordon was in Canada for that tournament and possibly VPNd either before or after that time and thats the issue. Stars is going to use that against him (that be broke TOS and can seize his account balance) even if he was physically in Canada for that 700k win.

I've been crossing the border into the US once or twice a week for the last several years, and I've never had them stamp my passport. However, they've scanned my passport at both the US & Canadian border crossings every single time.

But that said, I was making an assumption that this was commonplace for other border crossings, and maybe it isn't. Sounds like the Mexican border authorities are much more informal. And perhaps it's different for a US citizen.

LOL, what???

I think maybe you're confusing the practical reality with the law. It's rarely going to be worthwhile to sue a poker site, which in effect means that what they say goes. But that doesn't mean someone couldn't sue Stars if they wanted to.

San Ysidro crossing you mostly don't even get stopped if you're driving into Mexico. 90%+ of vehicles get the green light and you literally talk to nobody and just keep on driving. Entering the US, I've always had my passport scanned and every person talks to an agent. Wait time to get into the US in the 'normal' line (non nexus card) is always some amount of time that is 45mins+ (gets up to 6-8 hours on weekends at times, its crazy). On last Tuesday midday when I went, the line was much shorter than normal, 90 mins to get into the US. Driving back into Mexico that same day was <30 seconds.


You're now required to have a US passport when you enter Mexico, by law that is. That wasn't a thing until last year. I actually got red lighted last Tues and my passenger didn't have a passport but it wasn't an issue. We both speak ~ fluent Spanish and are very comfortable at BSing our way through police/other authority in any situation.

You're now also required to have a visa as an American in Mexico. If you're walking in, you now have to buy a ~$20 tourist visa. That also wasn't a thing until recently.

That was what I meant in my above post about how things have been changing. The physical border has changed too, was a ton of construction being done on both sides of the border




Also agree with what Charder said above. I've never had any issues and am US born and living in Mexico since 2011. Have had big PS tournament wins (up to 250k) and huge amounts of money in my cashier playing up to nosebleed hyper sats during COOP while also at the time working for an MTT stable and needing to send xfers etc, but I've never accessed my account from the US for any reason. All my other Rosa friends that I 'know' are 100% legit have not had any problems either

My information may be outdated was about 18 months ago i emailed stars with this question. The answer was that using a VPN while playing wasn't against breaking any terms and conditions.

Saying that as a Euro playing in a white listed country i would feel far more comfortable using a VPN than a American citizen spending a few months of the year playing coops in Canada. In that spot why use a VPN at all and potentially cause a problem such as this. Still think stars need to prove he was out of the country but only logging in from his normal Canadian IP would of avoided the situation.

having read the full complaint this is my read as well.

Care to elaborate? I thought they said they don't snoop on your computer activity. Maybe beyond the task manager list to see if software against the rules is running.

This is all reasonable, but I think people here would be interested in hearing your experience in more detail. Is that something you're willing to explain?

seems like this is occams razor. he vpned from cali later on and they caught him and confiscated his whole account. he was in canada at the time of his win.

im with vayo here. their tos can say whatever it wants but you cant steal peoples money. he wasnt breaking any isle of man laws or usa laws either. this is theft

Charder and Clayton have it right.

It's pretty clear from the complaint that Vayo was physically in Canada for the entirety of the SCOOP tournament that he won. Stars's position seems to be that Vayo can't prove that he never played from the US using a VPN at any time (i.e. not just during the tourney in question) and that they are thus justified in withholding his winnings.

Stars's position to me seems both convenient and scummy. If they believe Vayo was playing in the US at some point, then they're within their rights to seek a remedy for that violation of their terms of service. But that has nothing to do with his particular tournament win.

I think Vayo is going to have jurisdiction problems. He's suing a foreign entity in a US court for conduct for which Vayo expressly pleads was in Canada. The venue selection clause is also a problem for him.

My prediction: case gets dismissed on either jurisdiction or venue grounds. If Vayo can convince a federal district court in California to get over those issues, he'll win on the merits.

Agreed. Vayo appears to have been playing on-and-off in Canada (and Mexico) for years. He wouldn't be stupid enough to stay in the US use a VPN the whole time, and Stars hasn't even produced evidence of him being in the US at the time of SCOOP.
Someone at Stars appears to have seen Vayo's cashout request and thought "Oh, he's an American. Have we got any records of his IP address that don't match up with his Canadian residence? Oh, here's something from several months before SCOOP. Let's keep his money."

Needs a VPN to make it seem like his court case is in Isle of Man.

this was my exact thought as well. i also have no idea how in the world this ever goes to trial

I was strictly referring to leaving the US. Going back into the US, I've had the same experience, they always check your passport.

But if they only have records of you entering the country and not leaving it, they need additional information (e.g. credit card purchases, phone records) to prove how long you actually spent in each country. For US citizens, that's not really important in most circumstances, especially since you can't get out of the tax system anyway, but it might be for others who have their permanent residence in the US.

Looks like Mexico doesn't really care who enters their country from the North. FWIW, I am a permanent resident in the US but not a citizen.

don't get me wrong I hope he gets his money but going for triple damages etc, thats like w/e, jus can't see him winning tbh, he's been caught vpn from cali numerous times and basically admits vpn problems etc, its not looking good but what do I know, things like this are cool until u win 700k, Guy L multi accounting was cool as he lost 20-30 mil, sure if he was up 30m and tried cash out FT would've cried uncle im pretty sure tbh.

like mayo saying - its all cool until they stand to have to cash out loads $, then its problem

Poker Stars is pure scum.

I hope Vayo is awarded treble damages+legal fees. Stealing someone's money should have serious consequences.

Rooting for Stars here. Consider it karma for those blatant lies against Kassouf. "I saw him make a lady cry!"

It'd make sense for Stars to argue that using an admittedly malfunctioning VPN that showed his location in the USA shifts the burden of proof to the player.

Online poker is so dead ....you can't even make a big score and get paid anymore thanks to shady sites like PokerStars.