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Old 05-21-2018, 06:06 PM   #276
Gzesh
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

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Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
The complaint made for such an interesting read! Also, everybody in this thread raised lots of interesting points/angles as well Kind of a weird situation, when the overarching law guiding the parties' actions is the UIGEA - and it's a law that a lot of people don't believe best serves the interests of society, that the government is really lax about enforcing ... guess it's made for some very awkward situations as the parties attempt to comply?

With those first couple of causes of action, is Gordon alleging that Stars withheld material info about their enforcement procedures, *with the intent ... of inducing US players to use vpns (?)*, so that they could then take players money for their own personal gain? If all they're really trying to do is stay in good favour with US authorities, is it possible all those causes of action where intent would have to be shown might get dismissed ... or is that hard to get, lawyers/Howard?

Is the equity cause of action maybe more promising, if both parties may have been a bit slack with compliance, but sometimes complied? If Stars hasn't been catching non-compliance in real-time, would the Courts maybe consider it more fair for players to have the garnishment of winnings limited to those times where actual use of a vpn can be shown and not reasonably explained away by a preponderance, or whatever?

Was looking at the jurisdiction stuff too, and this case popped up with Keith Gipson in it!? https://supreme.justia.com/cases/fed.../opinion3.html At first, it seemed like such a coincidence that the big case for jurisdiction would involve another poker player - but maybe not such a coincidence after all, if most of us don't travel much and if we do, it's not under very interesting circumstances? So for California to have jurisdiction over the case, will Gordon have to show that Stars purposefully availed themselves of the State to establish sufficient minimum contacts, or something like that? And here Stars only granted access to their services to players who could show residency outside the US. Lawyers/Howard - does Gordon have a chance if he's able to show that Stars was motivated by an interest in competing with US companies for $, since they've been lobbying for access in California?

Will the venue clause possibly be an issue as well? Was reading the case included in the complaint, and it said they're generally upheld unless it can be shown that IoM courts would be so gravely difficult and inconvenient that Gordon would be for all practical purposes be deprived of his day in court - that sounds like kind of a high bar? https://scholar.google.ca/scholar_ca...1&oi=scholarr\


Guess the big thing for Vayo is the $ - but if Stars hasn't been keeping the money and their biggest concern is how they'll look to US authorities, with Vayo alleging/showing that they haven't been policing vpn use very carefully in real-time is there a chance they may wind up feeling like to show US authorities that they care about compliance with the UIGEA, their best way to do that may be to no longer accept US players on their rest of world site? Hope that isn't a possibility? That would affect a lot of people!
UIGEA is not involved in this case. Otherwise, your post was a very good read on the situation.

I've been told that Stars offers play money games in California, which if true probably gives them the minimum contacts needed.

Also, does Stars make ex-pat US players who play in Mexico/ROW cash out outside the US or will they wire funds to US accounts ?

The TOS referral to IOM courts remains a problem in avoiding dismissal where filed, but the dismissal would not be with prejudice to re-filing on IOM if the case is tossed from California. (Excellent find on that S.Ct "poker seizure" case denying jurisdiction in Nevada, decided below by the 9th Circuit.)
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Old 05-21-2018, 06:24 PM   #277
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

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Originally Posted by Gzesh View Post
Also, does Stars make ex-pat US players who play in Mexico/ROW cash out outside the US or will they wire funds to US accounts ?
They won't wire to US accounts, and they won't even wire to USD-denominated accounts in Canada for example. I spent a lot of time looking into this and it sounds like even transactions to USD-based accounts in other countries "touch" the US banking system en route, so that's why it isn't allowed.
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Old 05-21-2018, 07:04 PM   #278
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

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Originally Posted by TomfooleryU View Post
They won't wire to US accounts, and they won't even wire to USD-denominated accounts in Canada for example. I spent a lot of time looking into this and it sounds like even transactions to USD-based accounts in other countries "touch" the US banking system en route, so that's why it isn't allowed.
That doesn't surprise me.

Forgive my ignorance, are their games/tournaments outside NJ denominated in USD ?

Can you confirm whether they offer play for free, with or without prizing or buying chips into the California market ?
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:46 AM   #279
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

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That doesn't surprise me.

Forgive my ignorance, are their games/tournaments outside NJ denominated in USD ?

Can you confirm whether they offer play for free, with or without prizing or buying chips into the California market ?
Almost all real money games offered by Pokerstars are USD denominated. PS France and maybe some other local clients use Euro exclusively. PS global has a very limited number of EUR and GBP denominated games, typically only cash games I believe.

Pokerstars does offer play money poker in California via the Pokerstars.net client, which does not require pay to play although does allow you to purchase chips as you mention.
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Old 05-22-2018, 06:09 AM   #280
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

Satellites to live tournament events are in the currency of the target event, for example Monte Carlo satellites are in EUR. PCA in USD and London evens in GBP
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:26 AM   #281
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

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Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
Almost all real money games offered by Pokerstars are USD denominated. PS France and maybe some other local clients use Euro exclusively. PS global has a very limited number of EUR and GBP denominated games, typically only cash games I believe.

Pokerstars does offer play money poker in California via the Pokerstars.net client, which does not require pay to play although does allow you to purchase chips as you mention.
Looks like "sufficient contacts" in light of that play money business in the State/CD.

I still think the TOS choice of IOM as an exclusive forum is an open issue that will be tough on the Plaintiff.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:08 PM   #282
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

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(Excellent find on that S.Ct "poker seizure" case denying jurisdiction in Nevada, decided below by the 9th Circuit.)
If you enjoyed the last case, you may enjoy this other one was able to find as well? It seems like it may change things a fair bit?

Quote:
https://www.duanemorris.com/articles...mler_0116.html

Following Daimler, it has been widely accepted that merely because a defendant regularly conducts business in the state; advertises in the state; has employees, offices or agents in the state; has traveled to the state; has entered into contracts in the state; or has generated substantial revenues in the state; these factors are insufficient to render the defendant “at home” in the state. The Daimler ruling has provided defendants a basis to challenge personal jurisdiction in jurisdictions where the conduct giving rise to the injury did not occur and where the defendant was not incorporated and did not have its principal place of business. A dismissal for lack of general personal jurisdiction would not prevent another lawsuit from being filed against that defendant in a jurisdiction where the injury occurred or where the defendant is deemed to be at home.

Was only able to find these two though - guess there could be many more floating around out there?


Legal cases can be interesting to follow - guess sometimes people can wind up colouring a little outside the lines in life, and then there can be a big puzzle of trying to figure out what's right and what's fair, and stuff?

Will be interesting to read Stars' answer, if it's available for reading somewhere on the internet (free of charge, lol)

Last edited by TrustySam; 05-22-2018 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 05-23-2018, 05:40 AM   #283
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

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Also, does Stars make ex-pat US players who play in Mexico/ROW cash out outside the US or will they wire funds to US accounts ?
The 19 April 2011 agreement with the DOJ (in which PokerStars agreed to stop serving US players and DOJ returned the domain name to PokerStars) expressly required PokerStars to allow cash outs to US players.

While it forbid PokerStars from accepting deposits and real money play from the US, it actually required PokerStars to process withdrawals to the US. Indeed, even the current PokerStars TOS does not prohibit a player withdrawing money while they are in the US.

The settlement which substantially resolved the case did not terminate the first, 19 April 2011 agreement as far as I can see, so I imagine that PokerStars is still obligated to allow US players to withdraw.

Thus, there are two ways to withdraw money while in the US:
a) If you have a US PokerStars account, with money in it from prior to April 2011, then I expect that PokerStars would cash it out to your US financial instutition.
b) If you have a non-US PokerStars account, there's no prohibition in the PokerStars TOS to make a withdrawal while you are in the USA (eg, you're ordinarily resident in Russia, and you go to Los Angeles on holiday). Some of the automated PokerStars systems might incorrectly make it hard but there's nothing in the Terms of Service to prohibit you from circumventing those automated restrictions to withdraw while you are located in California (for example).

See here from the current PokerStars TOS:
Quote:
5.11
Rational Group prohibits persons located in (including temporary visitors) or residents of certain jurisdictions (including jurisdictions where persons are required to play according to the regulations in such jurisdiction, using the appropriately designated, licensed game) clients from making deposits into their accounts or engage in RM Games (the “Prohibited Jurisdictions”). For the avoidance of doubt, the foregoing restrictions on engaging in real-money play from Prohibited Jurisdictions apply equally to residents and citizens of other nations while located in a Prohibited Jurisdiction.

Any attempt to circumvent the restrictions on play by any persons located in a Prohibited Jurisdiction, is a breach of this Agreement. An attempt at circumvention includes, but is not limited to, manipulating the information used by Rational Group to identify your location and providing Rational Group with false or misleading information regarding your location or place of residence. Any such attempt will entitle us to take such steps as we deem appropriate including, without limitation, seizing the funds in your User account.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomfooleryU View Post
They won't wire to US accounts, and they won't even wire to USD-denominated accounts in Canada for example. I spent a lot of time looking into this and it sounds like even transactions to USD-based accounts in other countries "touch" the US banking system en route, so that's why it isn't allowed.
They might not offer wires to US bank accounts, but you can get a cheque or something else instead as described above. I don't know the details of what payment system/processor would be used, but there's no prohibition on someone who is ordinarily resident in Russia (but is temporarily in California) withdrawing to their Russian bank account.
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Old 05-23-2018, 06:59 AM   #284
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomfooleryU View Post
They won't wire to US accounts, and they won't even wire to USD-denominated accounts in Canada for example. I spent a lot of time looking into this and it sounds like even transactions to USD-based accounts in other countries "touch" the US banking system en route, so that's why it isn't allowed.
All US-dollar wires in the world must necessarily pass through a US-Bank. PStars is not alone in their prohibition of wires to US-denominated accounts in Canada.
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Old 05-23-2018, 09:40 AM   #285
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

That must be a fairly new thing. I used to work for a major UK bank and a transfer from one UK based USD account to another was instant and therefore can’t have touched the US banking system.
Things may have have changed in the last few years though
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:41 AM   #286
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

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Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
If you enjoyed the last case, you may enjoy this other one was able to find as well? It seems like it may change things a fair bit?




Was only able to find these two though - guess there could be many more floating around out there?


Legal cases can be interesting to follow - guess sometimes people can wind up colouring a little outside the lines in life, and then there can be a big puzzle of trying to figure out what's right and what's fair, and stuff?

Will be interesting to read Stars' answer, if it's available for reading somewhere on the internet (free of charge, lol)
Thanks, again. I'm too lazy to do the research myself without a paying client. What the article does is break down the law seemingly involved with personal injury lines of cases.

What looks interesting here is the angle that Vayo is denying that the activity that gave rise to his account balance ever took place from California, yet suing Stars from a court in California.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:47 AM   #287
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

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Originally Posted by PeteBlow View Post
That must be a fairly new thing. I used to work for a major UK bank and a transfer from one UK based USD account to another was instant and therefore can’t have touched the US banking system.
Things may have have changed in the last few years though
An in-house transfer policy, where the transfer is entirely on the internal books, nevertheless may be subject a newer bank policy concern that anything related to US dollar assets may jeopardize the UK bank's corresponding banking relationship with whatever US Bank does provide access for clearing wires through the Fed.

Where the underlying activity is gambling, rather than say paying off a porn star, that concern about correspondence banking relationships is likely exacerbated.

Been that way for several years, I was surprised to learn itt that Stars denominates cash games generally in USD. So far, I've learned quite a bit from posts in this thread.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:50 AM   #288
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
If you enjoyed the last case, you may enjoy this other one was able to find as well? It seems like it may change things a fair bit?




Was only able to find these two though - guess there could be many more floating around out there?


Legal cases can be interesting to follow - guess sometimes people can wind up colouring a little outside the lines in life, and then there can be a big puzzle of trying to figure out what's right and what's fair, and stuff?

Will be interesting to read Stars' answer, if it's available for reading somewhere on the internet (free of charge, lol)


Daimler was a sea change, and made it much harder to get jurisdiction against a foreign defendant. Vayo has two significant gating problems here: the forum selection clause problem, in which the TOS sends disputed to the Isle of Man) and getting personal jurisdiction over PokerStars in California. It used to be the case that doing business in a state would get you jurisdiction, but no more.

I’ll put some money on the proposition that Vayo loses on one or both of these grounds in the district court.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:52 AM   #289
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
If you enjoyed the last case, you may enjoy this other one was able to find as well? It seems like it may change things a fair bit?




Was only able to find these two though - guess there could be many more floating around out there?


Legal cases can be interesting to follow - guess sometimes people can wind up colouring a little outside the lines in life, and then there can be a big puzzle of trying to figure out what's right and what's fair, and stuff?

Will be interesting to read Stars' answer, if it's available for reading somewhere on the internet (free of charge, lol)


Sam,

I’ll guess that Stars doesn’t answer, and instead files a motion to dismiss for a) lack of jurisdiction and b) violation of the forum selection clause. These would be in lieu of an answer under Rule 12.

I haven’t researched this stuff in a while, but it’s fairly routine civil procedure.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:51 PM   #290
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzesh View Post
An in-house transfer policy, where the transfer is entirely on the internal books, nevertheless may be subject a newer bank policy concern that anything related to US dollar assets may jeopardize the UK bank's corresponding banking relationship with whatever US Bank does provide access for clearing wires through the Fed.

Where the underlying activity is gambling, rather than say paying off a porn star, that concern about correspondence banking relationships is likely exacerbated...
All of this is very interesting, except there's no prohibition on PokerStars paying withdrawals to players who are in the US - not only is there no such prohibition, there's an affirmative requirement (agreed with the US DOJ) that PokerStars process withdrawals to US players.
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Old Yesterday, 11:11 AM   #291
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

PokerStars' agreement with the DOJ may very well have been limited to allowing withdrawals to then-existing US customers.

Also, any agreement that PokerStars may have with the DOJ does not change a bank's, or an acquirer's, policies - and most reputable (bank and card) processors do not allow USD gambling transactions (regardless of the location of the player / card issuer / bank account).
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Old Yesterday, 12:41 PM   #292
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

A bit off topic but Gary Benson (a well known Australian player who owns/owned a cashout business called intercash where players could cash out/transfer between sites) just successfully sued Stars for 285k in Australian court that was withheld by Stars. It's a hard slog to get through but an interesting read also featuring Tony G and Pokernews

https://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decis...b074a7c6e1f67b

If it's worthy of it's own thread mods feel free to move but good to see a court decide Stars don't just have the right to take players money out of their accounts and invent reasons to justify it.
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Old Yesterday, 02:23 PM   #293
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

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Originally Posted by SwoopAE View Post
A bit off topic but Gary Benson (a well known Australian player who owns/owned a cashout business called intercash where players could cash out/transfer between sites) just successfully sued Stars for 285k in Australian court that was withheld by Stars. It's a hard slog to get through but an interesting read also featuring Tony G and Pokernews

https://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decis...b074a7c6e1f67b

If it's worthy of it's own thread mods feel free to move but good to see a court decide Stars don't just have the right to take players money out of their accounts and invent reasons to justify it.
Thanks, great find.
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Old Yesterday, 06:03 PM   #294
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Re: Gordon Vayo Sues PokerStars For $700k SCOOP Prize

Pretty neat to be able to follow this case, with insight from lawyers and people who are familiar with Stars policies

There seem to be a couple of legal poker issues in NVG these days - looking forward to seeing the Stars motion to dismiss ... and until then there's the Chris Ferguson situation to follow


Hope everybody has a nice weekend!
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