Quote:
Originally Posted by cramble
Josem - Do you understand what Stars is claiming with respect to this Vayo situation? It's kind of confusing, and perhaps many of the facts haven't come out yet. Thx.
I have no inside/expert knowledge here. I ceased working for PokerStars well before SCOOP 2017, and ceased working on US-related things back in 2013. Thus, I have no inside info to share here, merely interpreting what I've read.
I've read two key documents here:
a) the filed lawsuit from Vayo
b) the statement issued by PokerStars to some media outlets the other day
The filed lawsuit appears to describe the situation as follows - this is my brief summation, not exhaustive, etc. I'm also not commenting on the jurisdiction stuff, because I'm not a lawyer, I dunno how that will pan out.
1) Vayo claims to have played from Canada.
2) PokerStars claimed that they suspected he played from USA.
3) They exchanged some communication (security agents for PS, Vayo responding via email) whereby PokerStars asked various questions of Vayo, and he responded.
4) PokerStars' investigators decided that he was in the USA
5) Vayo's lawyer wrote to PS
6) PS's lawyer wrote to Vayo's lawyer
7) Vayo sued
PokerStars have commented in (6) above, and also publicly to the media.
In the lawsuit, Vayo's lawyer quoted from PS's lawyer. Allegedly, PS's lawyer said that it was "not inconceivable" that Vayo played from the USA. Obviously, PokerStars can't go around confiscating money from customers when it's "not inconveivable" that they broke the rules. PokerStars has previously held themselves to a much higher standard than this - god knows the abuse I got on this forum around cheating allegations several years ago.
In addition, PokerStars' comment to the media spoke about game integrity issues. Obviously, which side of the 49th parallel you play poker from has no impact on the integrity of the game. Those two issues do not interact - which side of
Rainy River you play from does not matter to the "integrity of the game". It might be a technical TOS breach, but it's not a game integrity issue.
Thus, from all of this, I think there has to be something untold about the PokerStars position, because as described, it doesn't make sense - and from what they've said, it might revolve around this "integrity of the game" issue. Confounding this, their lawyer - from the very limited quoted extract - seems to be a bit of a muppet, because "not inconceivable" is a terrible standard for confiscating $700k, and entirely unprecedented in PokerStars' history.
Really, the burden on proof shoulf be on PokerStars to affirmatively prove that the guy was in the USA before confiscating money. It certainly was their standard in the past.
In Vayo's situation, however, he
knows where he was, so it should not be overly difficult to prove that. For example, depending on how long records are kept, it should not be hard to show financial transactions taking place in various locations; it should not be hard to show geolocation history; it should not be impossible to get documentation showing when you left/entered a country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_utk
According to PokerStars, if you VPN, then your IP location must be the same as your real location. This is a loophole that is hard for a VPN to jump through.
a) I don't see anywhere that PokerStars has said that in any meaningful/intentional way outside the now-removed help page on their website (obviously it is possible that a staff member has mistakenly said that, but you can't take every such error so literally).
b) The statement makes no sense because
IP addresses don't have "real locations". IP addresses are unrelated to geography. That's the whole damn point of IP addresses - it's a method for computers to use to communicate, not a method for humans to evaluate geographic location. Some companies provide a service where they try to
estimate a
likely geographical service on the basis of an IP address, but holding players responsible for those third-party services is nonsensical, especially because there are many such errors in those third-party services.
An IP address is just one data point, and a complete and proper investigation needs to look at a whole variety of issues.