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Old 12-08-2017, 04:31 PM   #26
hAmThEkIlLeR
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

The fact that AlphaZero looks at millions fewer positions than Stockfish indicates that it's using a heuristic algorithm instead of looking at every possible variation like traditional chess engines do.

If that's the case, then theoretically AlphaZero isn't guaranteed to find the best move in every situation. (AlphaZero might might only consider variations that adhere to algorithmic logic while the best move appears to violate that logic).


I think human behavior is too unpredictable for an algorithm to yield consistently optimal results with poker the way it does with chess.
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Old 12-08-2017, 05:57 PM   #27
SolarAU
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

One of the most beautiful tidbits from AlphaZero learning chess in 4 hours was that without being given an opening book it managed to find and validate several of today's most popular (and strongest) openings, many of which were developed over 100's of years by strong human players and theoreticians alike.

After crushing Stockfish, an engine that Nakamura even claimed that not even god could beat it 75% of the time with white, AlphaZero looks poised to complete some amazing feats in solving games. Incomplete information games like poker will certainly be a new challenge but after their performances in chess & GO anything could be possible.

Dream machine anyone?
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Old 12-08-2017, 09:39 PM   #28
BERRI SOUR
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Originally Posted by SolarAU View Post
One of the most beautiful tidbits from AlphaZero learning chess in 4 hours was that without being given an opening book it managed to find and validate several of today's most popular (and strongest) openings, many of which were developed over 100's of years by strong human players and theoreticians alike.

After crushing Stockfish, an engine that Nakamura even claimed that not even god could beat it 75% of the time with white, AlphaZero looks poised to complete some amazing feats in solving games. Incomplete information games like poker will certainly be a new challenge but after their performances in chess & GO anything could be possible.

Dream machine anyone?
From the chess.com comments:
They made Stockfish play standing on one leg (low hash table RAM) with an arm amputated (opening book removed). Then, they gave themselves a supercomputer running against Stockfish on a desktop PC.
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Old 12-09-2017, 04:26 AM   #29
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Originally Posted by pucmo View Post
It seems it "adapted," as it states; that with the other comments seems to indicate it exploited human psychology/tendencies to get a 60% winrate (even when random answers give 50% - I am not too sure about that).

I do think it is good in poker, so I am not too surprised. The sample size was 1.2M if I saw it right. If all humans played it seriously, I don't think so, but I guess adapting would still work here also. Ask any magic man, and they will say that it likely will work.
pretty much guarantee annie duoche would split 50-50 with the comp
with her genius strat. Dollar bill/random number generator.

Say yes, even if they don't ask. Was that what that brutally awful tat said? (can't find it on google pics, can somone help me out with the goat tat pic? Someone needs a thong pic to see if the stem starts from brown town area (a Tom Segura joke).
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Old 12-09-2017, 05:36 AM   #30
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Josh Tenenbaum, a professor at MIT who studies human intelligence, said that if we want to develop real, human-level artificial intelligence, we should study the flexibility and creativity that humans exhibit. He pointed, among other examples, to the intelligence of Hassabis and his colleagues in devising, designing, and building the program in the first place. “That’s almost as impressive as a queen in the corner,” he quipped.
I think I've seen this movie. It doesnt end well for humans.

Too late for us all, AI enhanced axe in car.
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Old 12-09-2017, 09:08 AM   #31
TouchOfEVil
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

Would be awesome if IRL skynet actually made t-100 look like arnie, either as a troll as it would by that time picked up irony or cause when searching the net for suggestions it ends up with a lot of googled arnie pics
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Old 12-09-2017, 10:21 AM   #32
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Originally Posted by TouchOfEVil View Post
Would be awesome if IRL skynet actually made t-100 look like arnie, either as a troll as it would by that time picked up irony or cause when searching the net for suggestions it ends up with a lot of googled arnie pics
T-800, model 101.
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Old 12-09-2017, 11:23 AM   #33
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Originally Posted by BERRI SOUR View Post
From the chess.com comments:
They made Stockfish play standing on one leg (low hash table RAM) with an arm amputated (opening book removed). Then, they gave themselves a supercomputer running against Stockfish on a desktop PC.
This is irrelevant. Stockfish on a desktop PC is still playing at superhuman strength.

The point is not whether or not Alpha Zero would be a favourite against the best engine running on the best hardware. The point is to validate that a novel approach to computer chess is able to achieve a very high level of play.
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Old 12-09-2017, 02:33 PM   #34
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Originally Posted by lkasigh View Post

The point is not whether or not Alpha Zero would be a favourite against the best engine running on the best hardware. The point is to validate that a novel approach to computer chess is able to achieve a very high level of play.
yes.

the queen in the corner thing (among other unconventional A Zero strats) just freaked me out. pandora's box is opened.

I'd ask all to just let that sink in a bit.
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Old 12-09-2017, 02:52 PM   #35
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

Bots have beaten online poker for several yrs now, sometimes for good money.
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Old 12-09-2017, 03:25 PM   #36
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Originally Posted by L1lyR0semary View Post
https://www.chess.com/news/view/goog...100-game-match

AlphaZero taught itself to crush the strongest chess engine in just 4 hours. I understand the fundamental differences between chess and poker. One being a game of complete information and one not, but AlphaZero's approach to learning and playing games is like nothing we've seen before.

It appears to me that AlphaZero would be able to teach itself not only to approximate the nash equilibrium in different forms of poker, but to assess the strength of the opponent and start to employ maximal exploitative strategies that the opponent wouldn't be capable of adjusting to.

I'd sure like to see an AlphaZero vs Libratus match.
If AlphaZero can slightly randomize its chess game, and turn chess into a game of imperfect information, and STILL CRUSH the second best chess engine, then AlphaZero will indeed crush poker, along with any other game of imperfect information.

It all depends on how AlphaZero learns, and my finger in the wind says "yes".
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Old 12-09-2017, 04:00 PM   #37
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
If AlphaZero can slightly randomize its chess game, and turn chess into a game of imperfect information, and STILL CRUSH the second best chess engine, then AlphaZero will indeed crush poker, along with any other game of imperfect information.

It all depends on how AlphaZero learns, and my finger in the wind says "yes".
You'd have to change the rules of the game, not AlphaZero's approach, to make chess a game of 'incomplete information' :/

Personally I think the Alpha approach, if built upon, will ruin most games in the not-too-distant future. Chess engines are already causing huge problems for players in a practical sense, despite being great tools for improvement if used properly.

Poker is a different matter, but I give it about 10 years max before some huge development along AI lines hits it the same way.
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Old 12-09-2017, 04:13 PM   #38
MicroPimpin
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

Maybe I'm missing what's being discussed. Bots known to beat online poker sometimes for over a mil doesn't mean poker can be beat?
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Old 12-09-2017, 04:43 PM   #39
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Originally Posted by MicroPimpin View Post
Maybe I'm missing what's being discussed. Bots known to beat online poker sometimes for over a mil doesn't mean poker can be beat?
I guess it depends how they are used. The PLO bot problem on PS a couple of years back involved collusion as well I believe...this quote is from PFA and can't recall how accurate it was compared to PS investigation...

- 'It was a botting network which both utilized automated play strategy and colluded by sharing hole cards at the same table. With 3 bots at the same table at PLO, the bots could have knowledge of as many as 12 hole cards at once in the same hand -- which is a huge advantage in PLO.'
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Old 12-09-2017, 05:18 PM   #40
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

Quote:
Originally Posted by L1lyR0semary View Post
https://www.chess.com/news/view/goog...100-game-match

AlphaZero taught itself to crush the strongest chess engine in just 4 hours. I understand the fundamental differences between chess and poker. One being a game of complete information and one not, but AlphaZero's approach to learning and playing games is like nothing we've seen before.

It appears to me that AlphaZero would be able to teach itself not only to approximate the nash equilibrium in different forms of poker, but to assess the strength of the opponent and start to employ maximal exploitative strategies that the opponent wouldn't be capable of adjusting to.

I'd sure like to see an AlphaZero vs Libratus match.
super interesting, quality post, ty
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Old 12-09-2017, 06:39 PM   #41
RevengeoftheDonks
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

Given the number of possibilities after just a couple moves, chess is in reality is a game of incomplete information. Should be much easier to solve poker.
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Old 12-09-2017, 07:06 PM   #42
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Originally Posted by RevengeoftheDonks View Post
Given the number of possibilities after just a couple moves, chess is in reality is a game of incomplete information. Should be much easier to solve poker.
That's really not how it works RotD.
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Old 12-09-2017, 10:17 PM   #43
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Originally Posted by BERRI SOUR View Post
From the chess.com comments:
They made Stockfish play standing on one leg (low hash table RAM) with an arm amputated (opening book removed).
In that case it's a good job you only need like one hand and no legs to play chess.
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Old 12-09-2017, 10:21 PM   #44
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Originally Posted by RevengeoftheDonks View Post
Given the number of possibilities after just a couple moves, chess is in reality is a game of incomplete information.
You might want to check what "incomplete information" means.
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Old 12-10-2017, 01:01 AM   #45
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Originally Posted by RevengeoftheDonks View Post
Given the number of possibilities after just a couple moves, chess is in reality is a game of incomplete information. Should be much easier to solve poker.
No, chess is a game of complete information as all moves that are possible and all variables are at hand at every move. You just don't know what your are talking about.

Also chess is a turn based game. I'd love to see a real world simulation of AI trying to compete with real military. It would get raped so hard and will get raped for a long time coming. Humans are inventive and can play games in real time like nothing else. Our brains process more information then a computer can to implement it in a real time game like war on a level that a computer is rather illiterate to. Skynet doesn't have a chance compared to the genius of a hominid with free mind.

The funny thing is we havn't seen many of those hominids from lack of training and especially in this era the hominids are.... well the best way to say it is they are filled with tons of viruses if you compare them to a computer.

Humans versus AI... I see jedi in the future crushing the AI like peons. It's easy to see it that way after studying the brain properly. Many science geeks don't tho....
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Old 12-10-2017, 01:56 AM   #46
MicroPimpin
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Originally Posted by hedgecock View Post
I guess it depends how they are used. The PLO bot problem on PS a couple of years back involved collusion as well I believe...this quote is from PFA and can't recall how accurate it was compared to PS investigation...

- 'It was a botting network which both utilized automated play strategy and colluded by sharing hole cards at the same table. With 3 bots at the same table at PLO, the bots could have knowledge of as many as 12 hole cards at once in the same hand -- which is a huge advantage in PLO.'
yeah, the collusion aspect of it is probably bigger than I thought. It also depends on the def of beating poker. Making a small profit at small stakes or beating top players HU.

I think it happens even in higher limits more than people realize. The ones people know about are the dumb, careless ones.

Last edited by MicroPimpin; 12-10-2017 at 02:02 AM.
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Old 12-10-2017, 03:56 AM   #47
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

I guess it depends on what one means with "complete" information. In chess, one usually do not see the checkmate, while in poker, one sort of always does.
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Old 12-10-2017, 09:58 AM   #48
spewmonk3y
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

Libratus vs Googles Alphazero 1 time plss, lib apparently was 5bb exploitable still, despite soulcrushing evil empire crew at 16bbs

Doubt they have much incentive to ever make that happen, but id be fanboying so hard.
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Old 12-10-2017, 04:36 PM   #49
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

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Originally Posted by uradoodooface View Post
I'd love to see a real world simulation of AI trying to compete with real military.
If you fancy playing heads up against the Samsung SGR-A1 sentry bots on the edge of the Korean DMZ, I'm sure the authorities would be interested to know how many times you get killed.
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Old 12-10-2017, 04:56 PM   #50
PTLou
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Re: Google's AlphaZero just smashed the strongest chess engine. Is poker next?

EZ game. take my samsung galaxy note. turn on bluetooth. connect with sentry guns bluetooth. turn guns on north koreans. hit fire button.
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