The fact that AlphaZero looks at millions fewer positions than Stockfish indicates that it's using a heuristic algorithm instead of looking at every possible variation like traditional chess engines do.

If that's the case, then theoretically AlphaZero isn't guaranteed to find the best move in every situation. (AlphaZero might might only consider variations that adhere to algorithmic logic while the best move appears to violate that logic).


I think human behavior is too unpredictable for an algorithm to yield consistently optimal results with poker the way it does with chess.

One of the most beautiful tidbits from AlphaZero learning chess in 4 hours was that without being given an opening book it managed to find and validate several of today's most popular (and strongest) openings, many of which were developed over 100's of years by strong human players and theoreticians alike.

After crushing Stockfish, an engine that Nakamura even claimed that not even god could beat it 75% of the time with white, AlphaZero looks poised to complete some amazing feats in solving games. Incomplete information games like poker will certainly be a new challenge but after their performances in chess & GO anything could be possible.

Dream machine anyone?

From the chess.com comments:
They made Stockfish play standing on one leg (low hash table RAM) with an arm amputated (opening book removed). Then, they gave themselves a supercomputer running against Stockfish on a desktop PC.

pretty much guarantee annie duoche would split 50-50 with the comp
with her genius strat. Dollar bill/random number generator.

Say yes, even if they don't ask. Was that what that brutally awful tat said? (can't find it on google pics, can somone help me out with the goat tat pic? Someone needs a thong pic to see if the stem starts from brown town area (a Tom Segura joke).

I think I've seen this movie. It doesnt end well for humans.

Too late for us all, AI enhanced axe in car.

Would be awesome if IRL skynet actually made t-100 look like arnie, either as a troll as it would by that time picked up irony or cause when searching the net for suggestions it ends up with a lot of googled arnie pics

T-800, model 101.

This is irrelevant. Stockfish on a desktop PC is still playing at superhuman strength.

The point is not whether or not Alpha Zero would be a favourite against the best engine running on the best hardware. The point is to validate that a novel approach to computer chess is able to achieve a very high level of play.

yes.

the queen in the corner thing (among other unconventional A Zero strats) just freaked me out. pandora's box is opened.

I'd ask all to just let that sink in a bit.

Bots have beaten online poker for several yrs now, sometimes for good money.

If AlphaZero can slightly randomize its chess game, and turn chess into a game of imperfect information, and STILL CRUSH the second best chess engine, then AlphaZero will indeed crush poker, along with any other game of imperfect information.

It all depends on how AlphaZero learns, and my finger in the wind says "yes".

You'd have to change the rules of the game, not AlphaZero's approach, to make chess a game of 'incomplete information' :/

Personally I think the Alpha approach, if built upon, will ruin most games in the not-too-distant future. Chess engines are already causing huge problems for players in a practical sense, despite being great tools for improvement if used properly.

Poker is a different matter, but I give it about 10 years max before some huge development along AI lines hits it the same way.

Maybe I'm missing what's being discussed. Bots known to beat online poker sometimes for over a mil doesn't mean poker can be beat?

I guess it depends how they are used. The PLO bot problem on PS a couple of years back involved collusion as well I believe...this quote is from PFA and can't recall how accurate it was compared to PS investigation...

- 'It was a botting network which both utilized automated play strategy and colluded by sharing hole cards at the same table. With 3 bots at the same table at PLO, the bots could have knowledge of as many as 12 hole cards at once in the same hand -- which is a huge advantage in PLO.'

super interesting, quality post, ty

Given the number of possibilities after just a couple moves, chess is in reality is a game of incomplete information. Should be much easier to solve poker.

That's really not how it works RotD.

In that case it's a good job you only need like one hand and no legs to play chess.

You might want to check what "incomplete information" means.

No, chess is a game of complete information as all moves that are possible and all variables are at hand at every move. You just don't know what your are talking about.

Also chess is a turn based game. I'd love to see a real world simulation of AI trying to compete with real military. It would get raped so hard and will get raped for a long time coming. Humans are inventive and can play games in real time like nothing else. Our brains process more information then a computer can to implement it in a real time game like war on a level that a computer is rather illiterate to. Skynet doesn't have a chance compared to the genius of a hominid with free mind.

The funny thing is we havn't seen many of those hominids from lack of training and especially in this era the hominids are.... well the best way to say it is they are filled with tons of viruses if you compare them to a computer.

Humans versus AI... I see jedi in the future crushing the AI like peons. It's easy to see it that way after studying the brain properly. Many science geeks don't tho....

yeah, the collusion aspect of it is probably bigger than I thought. It also depends on the def of beating poker. Making a small profit at small stakes or beating top players HU.

I think it happens even in higher limits more than people realize. The ones people know about are the dumb, careless ones.

I guess it depends on what one means with "complete" information. In chess, one usually do not see the checkmate, while in poker, one sort of always does.

Libratus vs Googles Alphazero 1 time plss, lib apparently was 5bb exploitable still, despite soulcrushing evil empire crew at 16bbs

Doubt they have much incentive to ever make that happen, but id be fanboying so hard.

If you fancy playing heads up against the Samsung SGR-A1 sentry bots on the edge of the Korean DMZ, I'm sure the authorities would be interested to know how many times you get killed.

EZ game. take my samsung galaxy note. turn on bluetooth. connect with sentry guns bluetooth. turn guns on north koreans. hit fire button.