I find this entire thing incredibly depressing and am starting to regret getting pulled into the saga so early.

As far as Tyler and JM concerned, JM posted that he and Tyler have agreed to settle this privately; as long as Tyler feels fairly compensated, I doubt we'll hear much more from him.

As for what we as the community should feel about what JM owes in this situation...

IF Tyler knew JMs SN on that site (and while he originally posted that he knew JMs Onbet name, he referred to it as his "network SN", so it's certainly possible that JM told him it was his SN network wide)

Then this is clearly a case where 100% compensation was due.

IF Tyler did not know JMs SN on that site, the fact that JM was playing on a site pro account becomes the deciding factor.

Tyler told me he had no idea who Girah was, but later clarified that he had no idea who Girah was when the match started - he Googled the name at the beginning of the match. So he clearly knew he was playing a site pro, and ergo somebody good, so some are arguing what's the big deal, he knew he was playing a very good player, and decided to play for those stakes and lost, too bad, so sad (and FWIW, while Tyler said ~$40K was a lot to him, I never got the impression he was busto without it).

However, Tyler would never have played vs. JM, and JM knew that. If Tyler had sat down vs. just a random SN, because you can have different SNs on different Merge skins, he'd have a right to feel scammed, because JM knew that he would never play him, but not really much recourse otherwise, since theoretically any random COULD be JM.

But he didn't play a random, he played a site pro, and quickly discovered that. He believed he was playing Jose, who clearly could not be JM (hah!). Which is why the fact that JM played on a site pro account on a skin where he's claimed not to have an account become relevant. Tyler had ever reason to believe there was zero chance he was playing JM (since the SN he was playing against was linked to a known site pro), but he was playing JM, ergo he was cheated.

FFS, all JM had to do was make his own Lock account and none of this would be an issue.

Sorry if I wasn't entirely clear last night (or early this morning, as the case was). My brain was complete mush and I was in a lot of pain. We'll see if I do better today.

SGT RJ, your long post above just demonstrates my point. Why is everyone still focused on that issue when the zillion bigger issues/questions about this scandal have yet to be resolved/answered?

Anyone unfamiliar with what happened during the Bluff Challenge needs to read this.

http://pokernewsboy.com/lock/bluff-p...tch-title/253/

Further information regarding what Girahh says really took place can be found here:

http://www.girahpoker.com/blog/on_ge...uff_challenge1

Read these two stories in their entireity and draw you own conclusions regarding if Girahh/DogIsHead/jungleman intended to steal the Bluff Challenge.

I, for one, am having a hard time finding another reasonable explanation. Who was the driving force behind this? I really have no clue. But all three of these players have admitted involvement, in one way or another.

Good point, what is happening here after reading back the past few pages, is the HStards now aware that the masses who decided to tune into the ""Portuguese Poker Prodigy" are privy to there common and uber-secretive cheating practices, seem to shrug it off as acceptable and to be expected. Afterall they are the HSNL players, and this is just NVG, so how could what they think not be right on so many levels.

What's fascinating to me at this point, whether they realize it or not (all you have to do is read in full context) is how the HS people in this thread expect the masses to just agree with them, as they come up with a "fair market value" in terms of refunding when MA'd. This is insane. The funny thing is the ones all in favor of Jungleman not getting a 100% refund are so obviously other multi-accounters and just dont want 100% refunds to become standard operating procedure and the precedent, because they know having multi-accounted massively themself and dont want to be responsible for 100% restitution also (if caught obv lol)....

I hope you brilliant HStards realize how glaringly obvious it is why you are agreeing with Jungleman, its because you most likely have multi-accounted as well, and dont want 100% refunds to be the standard. How dare a NVGtard ever say such a thing, afterall you control the economy right .... Well you have done a terrible job, and look where its gotten the online pokers. You cornered all that equity for yourselfs, even if you did it in disgusting ways, most of you do not care, unless you are caught ofc.

Have fun fleeing to foreign countries trying to sustain your scamming/scummy way of life. When you get there try treating people with a little more dignity, even the lowly NVGtards, at least you all would look better in that manner.

Seeings im not "qualified" to play in the big boy sandbox aka hsnl thread i'll do it here.

biggest idiot in that thread is ASA imo. just frigging wow with that guy. blinders on full speed ahead.

I'd like to make it clear I'm DEF not nuthugging, I think jungleman has come off extremely bad in the whole affair, and only continues to make himself worse. However:

People aren't saying there's nothing wrong with him playing on the account - it's clearly 100% wrong. The argument isn't whether he did something wrong though, the entire debate is whether Tyler should be paid back some or all of what he lost to Jungleman. Some are arguing he shouldn't for a number of reasons, none of which are that Jungleman did nothing wrong.

As far as I can tell, the main reason for this is that in this particular instance Jungleman didn't gain any unfair advantages that MAing usually results in. The reason people hate MAing so much is that the offender has reads on the other player and the other player has his reads taken away. Also they are 'assured' it shouldn't be the person who is actually playing, since that person already has an account on the site.

Tyler admitted (he's changed his story somewhat though) that he had no idea who Girahh was when he sat to play him. So that means that practically speaking this is no different than Jungle playing him on his own account. Or put another way, if Jungle DID create his own account 'xyz123' and sat at the same games, Tyler still would have played him since it would just be another random account who he assumed could be a fish. On a network like Merge where you can create a new account for different skins, it's entirely possible for a player to have different names so you have to accept that it just might be a very good player under an anonymous name, and they are within their rights to have that account. Obviously Jungleman was not within his rights though.

I'm not really sure about my opinion on all of this, that's just what I gather the argument to be. My problem with your post was it was just about as misleading as you can be in terms of what the actual issue is, and people's reactions to it. This is not a case of 'well who cares if he MA'd because it's Jungleman', it's 'maybe Tyler shouldn't be paid back because it actually made no difference whether it's Jungleman's account or not'. Also the fact that Jungle was friendly with him before doesn't really make a difference on how unethical it was, it just makes Jungle out to be more of a douche.

edit: and yes, the fact that it was a Lock Pro account makes it worse for sure. But it makes it worse that jungleman did it, it still doesn't make the match any less fair given it wouldn't have made a difference to Tyler.

edit 2: just read SGT's post which says Tyler knew after the beginning of the match. This obviously changes things, but yeah I still disagree with your post I previously quoted.

(cross posted)

^ This

plus, Tyler is just joining for the freeroll ride.

nice to hear JM/tyler settling privately.

This too shall pass, as have all the other scandals.

Next.......

From DIH's new blog: http://inanitylane.blogspot.com/

"Last night Jose got back in touch with me. He had been unreachable for the last few days so I scrambled to answer once I saw who was calling my phone. We spoke for a while over the phone. I spoke to him calmly and slowly, without affect. He did not know what had happened since he left on vacation the night this story broke. He told me that reading about it made him too sad, and so he couldn't. I explained to him everything that had happened, how me and Jungle had gotten destroyed on the forums for being associated with him, that people were accusing me of being complicit in his scams, I told him about all of the proof that had come out that he had multiple accounts on TwoPlusTwo, that he had never made all of that money and lied about his account names, that everything was a huge sham, and pointed out that he had cheated me and Jungle as well.

He told me that he was sorry about everything. He sounded very sad. He told me that he definitely didn't cheat me or Jungle and could provide proof that he didn't; he said if we could show him any evidence that any play on our stake was illegitimate that he'd recompensate us 10x whatever we were cheated, and agreed to send us all hand histories that he had ever played as well as try to get Lock Poker to verify. He told me that 2 other accounts (including LookingForProdigy) were his friends who helped him come up with the idea to create publicity for himself, and said that sdgsdjdgdjsg (or whatever) was his girlfriend. I told him, how can you expect me to believe a word you say? You've lied to us about everything. I don't know what about you is true and what's false.

He told me that that wasn't true, and that he had really made all the money he claimed to. I told him that twoplustwo had provided proof that he hadn't, that his results were all faked, and that he was full of ****. He told me he could prove that he had. He said that he had 600k sitting in his bank account right now and could show proof to anyone who wanted to see. I told him to contact some journalists and that if he could prove it satisfactorily to them, that would go a long way towards establishing his credibility. He told me he would, and assured me he'd remain contactable. He also told me that he didn't intend to play poker anymore. He seemed to still care very much for me and Jungle.

I don't know whether or not to believe Jose. He has lied about an enormous number of things, to me and to Jungle and many other people. He tried to scam many people, including people I know he looked up to. But as I spoke to him I realized I do not have any hate towards him. Why, it's hard to say. My involvement with him has destroyed my entire poker career. I don't trust him, and I know he betrayed me. But life is too short and emotion is too valuable for hating people. Everyone is just trying their best in the end. I don't know why Jose cheated people, lied and manipulated the way he did. But I hope that someday, he will be able to atone for what he did too. And that once he does, that he can find his own happiness. And **** everyone else who thinks that there is anyone who doesn't deserve that. **** everyone who thinks there's such a thing as unredeemable. And that I mean from the bottom of my heart."

Why does it strike me that DIH made that entire conversation with Jose up out of whole cloth?

gtfo, seriously, are you out of your mind with this line of reasoning? Poor Jungleman right. Take the bias blinders off please.

Good thing Jungleman didn't make it to live with Jose FOR THE SAKE OF EVERYONE ELSE THEY WERE PLANNING ON SCAMMING. Not poor Jungleman. Do you realize how many hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions they were planning on skimming off unsuspecting players on Lock/Merge and probaby many more sites?

Please people get off the Jungleman ride, and back on the moral one. Think about what the initial plan was, they were gonna CRUSH people, including probably some of the HStards that are lol defending them now, so long as this plan was not found out sooner. Jungleman was going to crush everyone, under the guise of Girah, among other disguises. Quit it with the poor JM bull***t, and get back on track with what was really happening.

They were going to crush people for every single penny had this not been figured out when it did, all under the same roof. Quit with the poor JM, that is the furthest sentiment that should be had, given all of the details at this point. And hoenstly the most alarming one of all...

DIH +10 creative writing.

The sociopath manifesto.

DublingUp:

not really on anyone's side really.
it's pretty obvious that Haseeb was the plot planner here
and is now backing off; his plan foiled and 3 lives changed.

I find Haseeb the leach.
He will find another in another form somewhere down the road.
that appears to be his M.O.

as an aside, I am on the side of durrrr when referencing MA'ing.
pretty much necessary for the poker economy.
(see post #2646 in the HS forum)

At least we all learned something the last few days; The highstakes community is disgusting.

This post is ******ed. They publicly came out and said they were going to be living together. If they quietly were moving in together then your post might have some credence but the move was public knowledge, thus it would be pretty easy to figure out the possible scam.

There was no 'possible scam.' They've already scammed people. It's impossible for three high profile poker players to hide the fact they're going to live together; they're not that stupid.

So he can prove he scammed so many people that he now has 600K in his bank? great.

Wow. Just wow. Been reading that thread and it read like a book, just like this Jose-story.
Lots of similarities. For instance lots of false aliases in that thread who in hindsight seem to be a part of it, and maybe a similarity that wellknown people had their identities abused or hacked.
And, to be honest, I'll just say it, same guy who'd been scammed in the same way, after which all the blame goes to an unknown who is then never to be found.
Somewhere in the HSNL-thread there is a claim of 663366 who says he knows names of involved people in that skype-group. Haven't seen him publish names and facts yet. What takes him so long?

My first post here, I find it fascinating that all the HSNL players are saying this is just a simple case of MA'ing and is completely fine because Merge allows multiple SN, well that's all good, but Jungleman wasn't playing under one of his SN's, he was playing under another persons account, posing as someone with a much weaker game.

Are as many people as you want allowed to play under one account? If so, isn't this at least completely unethical? I have no problem with someone having multiple accounts if the network allows it, but playing on an account of a weaker players should be off limits.

This was a way to scam Tyler. The most important part in all this is that the account was NOT his. Many will defend him, because these shady practices have gone on for some time by many of them.

The fact that he's been banned might be a factor.

Yeah, no. FWIW, I never thought he was trying to cover stuff up and I don't think he should payback for account sharing. He's a scumbag for being a bad human being with no moral compass. I have to believe from reading about his parents that he had a better upbringing than to use surreptitious and conniving ways to win money from another player and be glib about it afterward.

edit: to not sound contradictory above: you can be a account sharing douchebag mastermind, but don't expect me to be a fan esp. when you treat those that look up to you like ish

Lol. "He's been banned" is the second best excuse for not posting after "he's died".
So does anybody know about the facts that 663366 has, or was he full of it?

This has been touched on and I think it bearing repeating. We've all (including myself) been misusing the term "multiaccounting" in regards to this scandal.

Multiaccounting is when one player has multiple accounts. AFAIK, at least on Lock, this didn't actually happen, since the SamChauhaun account was Haseeb's, I think, and the girahh account was Girah's. If Girah or Haseeb had another account on Lock, that would be MAing, of course.

Account sharing is when multiple people play on one account, which is what happened on the SamChauhan and Girah accounts when JM played on them.

This has lead to some confusion, and I apologize for my hand this by misusing the term multiple times in the cliffs and my posts.

message from isildur to DIH and jungleman

Jungle has the clearest moral compass I know. When Tyler approached him, he didn't ask himself what was the best thing to do for himself or his image. He wondered what the best thing to do for the community. He didn't want to set a precedent that the rest of the community would be held. He never said he wouldn't pay Tyler, he went to the community (HSNL) and asked them what he should do.

Has any reputable 2+2er tried to contact Jose for his side of this?? Every account comes from a 3rd party. Ridiculous that we can't get answers straight from the guy's mouth. Very suspicious.

Someone not involved in the scandal should try to reach him for comment.