Hey 2+2 -

I have never been active here, but today i feel like i have to raise my voice and share this following post with the pokercommunity.

My name is Tobias - AKA dudd1 on Pokerstars, moneybyebye on America's Cardroom, and Ben ABC on GG-Poker. I want to share a recent experience that I had with GG-Poker.

I'm a high-stakes player from Germany, currently living in Austria, and have been around the mid/high-stakes scene for quite some time now. I've played on pretty much all the sites out there, for years now, and until now have never had any problems with any of them.

Recently, GG-Poker decided to confiscate my site balance. I think the confiscation is entirely disproportionate on their end, so I've decided to make this post, in order to:
- Get a public and fair opinion on the case; and
- Make everybody - especially other high-stakes regs - aware of what can happen to your
balance on GG-Poker

The total amount of my balance there is around $180,000 USD.

So what happened? We'll have to go back in time a bit to puzzle all the pieces together.

In 2016, I deposited a small amount on Natural8, and played NL400-NL1k for around a week or two. I won around 3-5k in the first couple of days. (I can't check the exact time frame or amount won anymore, since they deleted my account, and it's been 4 years - but it's somewhere around these numbers.)

After the first few sessions, with no warning, Natural8 told me to take my money and not play on their network anymore. These days GG-Poker always gives a warning to players before banning them. They said that if I came back to play there, they would proceed with their "security protocol", whatever that meant - I asked, but they wouldn't give me a clear statement on either what they meant by that, or what I'd done wrong.

Fast forward to the year 2019:

GG-Poker had grown to be one of the bigger networks around, so I decided to give it a shot. I didn't know that 2016 Natural8 and 2019 GG-Poker were the same network, nor did I really even remember the 2016 incident at this point. 3 years later, I'd forgotten all about it.

In 2019 I created an account on a GG-Poker skin called Bestpoker, under the Nickname "TheViolence". (At this point I'm wondering: if I was joining a network from which I'd been banned, why was I able to not only create, but to fully verify an account, using the exact same personal data I had previously used?)

So I played NL5k-NL40k on Bestpoker in 2019. During that time I was raking an insane amount, and was losing around 85k. At some point, Bestpoker decided to remove the high-stakes tables, so I was forced to change skins.

At the start of 2020 I moved to Betkings, created the account "ElBernardo" using the same data I had always used, and played there for maybe half-a-month before all the skins from the network fused to one skin, "GG". At the time, I was still losing on that account.

When the fuse happened, I changed my affiliate, and from then on played as "Ben ABC" on GG-Poker itself. At this point I'd like to mention that all former accounts got deleted after the fuse, before I got my "real" GG account. All of this was in agreement with both my affiliate and a representative from GG-Poker; again, all of this is clearly within the rules and TOS of GG-Poker. I was never trying to hide my identity nor was I trying to get any advantage from changing nicknames.

You might be thinking: "Wow, this guy had 3 different accounts!" To be clear, this only has to do with the different skins and the aforementioned merger. (Ask around if you know people playing on GG, as I'm sure a lot of them are familiar with this event.)

At this point, things start to become interesting. Again, I was able to fully verify my account, and had no problems depositing a big sum ($50,000 USD). I played for a while on the account, still losing, until around the weekend of May 29th. At this point I've paid tens of thousands of dollars worth of rake, and I'm stuck big time on the site.

Finally, around the end of May, I spun up my roll from 30k to 180k within a period of about one-and-a-half weeks.

Then GG forced their high-stakes players to change to their real name, instead of a nickname. So I was doing the verification yet again (recall that they already had all of my data: ID, phone bill, etc) when my account suddenly got locked. I had no idea what was going on until a few days later, when I got an email telling me that my funds had been confiscated, because I wasn't allowed to play on GG-Poker in the first place.

So if I wasn't allowed to play on GG-Poker, how is it possible to play there for over a year? Don't they check the accounts being created on their network? Have they just been waiting until I finally had enough money in my account to make it worthwhile for them to keep it? If I would've kept losing, would I still be able to play on GG-Poker?

There are a lot of questions - that I suspect I know the answers to.

I'm currently texting back and forth with the security team from GG-Poker, trying to understand what's happening, and why I was able to pump money into their system for 1.5 years even though I was supposedly banned.

After some back and forth they finally said they would allow me to take my deposit back, but would not pay out what I'd won. Again, the money I won was won 100% fairly: I never hid my identity; there was nothing to cause an unfair advantage over anybody; most of the other high-stakes players were aware of who I was, since I play across all sites and it's not very hard to find out who I am.

So why does GG offer to give me back the deposit, but not my winnings? By giving back the deposit, they've essentially admitted that I didn't win in an unfair way. Apparently, they've just decided to take a cheap shot at my money.

In my opinion, it's easy to see why I'd think the confiscation of such a large sum is disproportionate (especially after losing a lot of my own money to GG players, and to the system), but I'm obviously biased because for me, personally, there's a huge sum on the line.

So I decided to talk to other high-stakes players that I know well, and ask them about their opinion on this. The responses I got were all in agreement with me - it seems very obvious that I got free-rolled here, and that it's almost a scam by GG-Poker, from an ethical point of view.

It would be much different if they told me in 2019, after a day, or maybe a few days, that I wasn't allowed to play and that they'd have to return my deposit. But letting me play for such an extended time as 1.5 years, while losing, and then not paying me when I'm winning fairly, makes me wonder about two things:

- Either GG-Poker really didn't realize I was banned for this entire period of time, and thus their security-system is the worst on the market; or
- I just got free-rolled for 1.5 years, good to them for only as long as I kept putting money into this highly questionable system.

Please feel free to decide which one you think is more likely.

All in all, I just feel very sad about the decision GG-Poker has made here. I think their decision is far too harsh. Especially when I think the fault lies mainly with their security team.

I don't know if they're technically within their rights with what they're doing to me, but I'd think that after free-rolling me all this time, it should only take a little bit of ethical consideration on their part to come to a more sympathetic decision.

Now, you might think here: "Well, dudd1 is just stupid for not knowing he's not allowed to play on the site!" That's one way to think about it, and that's okay. But in the current high-stakes climate, especially with all the new modern troubles out there, I think I am, and have always striven to be, a very fair player. I would never try to get any unfair advantage over anybody else, and I'm sure there are a lot of well-known and respected players throughout the poker community that would be happy to vouch for my integrity, if it comes to that.

I don't know if this situation will ever be resolved to my satisfaction. But I wanted to post this in order to at the very least raise awareness, and to remind all of you to keep an eye out for all the things out there that can happen to you and your money.

I hope nobody else has to go through what I'm going through right now. If this post will help prevent some of you out there from having trouble like this, I consider it time well spent.


Kind Regards,
Tobias/dudd1

tl;dr:
- GG-Poker freerolled well known highstakes reg for over a year
- 180k confiscated by the site, completly disapropriate
- trying to rise awareness what can happen to your money there

***

Edit/MH:

https://www.gamblingnews.com/news/gg...d-a-poker-pro/

This might have been the thing to do before depositing originally. GL.

Is the reason you were banned on natural8 simply that you were obviously a pro and winning money?

“Disproportionate”- Interesting word choice.

Appears they are acting in bad faith. Can't say i'm surprised.

Have you complained to the Malta gaming regulator, the Malta Gaming Authority, which licenses GGPoker ?

Hey everybody,
I wasn't ever really active on 2+2, but still felt that I should leave some words here to raise awareness to the case of my buddy Tobias Duthweiler aka dudd1 (Pokerstars) who might be well known within the Highstakes NL Cash Community but probably still an unknown to many of you.

I got to know Tobias about 7 or 8 years ago and was always following how he moved up the stakes. Since I'm back to Cashgames in 2020, we talk on a very regular basis, so I could witness first hand what GG did to him and can only underline what he stated above.

I don't want to cut anyone's rights, but once stuff happens that's just not okay I feel I need to speak up as well. So obviously it is any pokersite's right to ban a player for any reason, but for confiscating enormous funds there needs to be a solid reasoning, so the question I ask myself is what did he do?

Playing on N8 3-4 years ago and getting banned for „bumhunting“,“predatory behaviour“ or whatever words might have been used before ever getting a warning?
Back then the GG network was nothing but a jumble with those different sites and affiliates and pretty small action and actually I have no clue whether Tobi knew that GG and N8 were the same thing or not but firstly I believe him as the incredibly honest person I got to know over the years and secondly it doesn't matter at all to me in that specific case:

-Questionable Ban back then(totally okay, don't get me wrong)
-multiple verifications
-no identity hiding
-playing for longer than a year raking huge amounts
-huge cashin

and mainly there is no victim in my eyes. So if GG finds reasons to confiscate 130k USD effectively, where does that money go? Do they have incentive to freeroll spots like that?
Are there other spots like that I don't know about? Should I worry about keeping funds on GG?

To me this is just an unfair treatment and it gives me a very bad feeling about keeping money on GG, so I think that needs to be spread.

Best regards
Steffen Sontheimer

is why

fwiw, I do remember that few years ago GG was banning pretty much every winning player on made-up basis, so this part of the story checks out. Given what we heard, it does look like OP was freerolled by them.

Get DNegs on it, I’m sure he’ll look out for players interests and have our backs...........

dosent GGPoker have a lot of sponsored pros?

how are they okey with representing a site like this?

If this situation isn't resolved in a way where dudd1 gets his full balance paid out, I'd be hesitant to keep a large amount of money on GG Poker.

Having a poker room take arbitrary action regarding player balances is a pretty bad sign. With smaller networks I'd suspect liquidity issues but I doubt that's the case with GG.

Who are the CEOs of these pokersites? Why isn't there public outrage against them? it's always "the site".
These decisions are made by actual people. Go after the directors, they are the scum.
They have twitters/socials/linkedins.

Stars, GG, partypoker people assume are just faceless corportations. THE FACE IS THE CEO.
Phil Nagy is the only front guy who stands behind his site, even if it is littered with problems. (Phil Galfond as well, with run it once)

If cocacola screws up, people go after the CEO. Why is poker site managment immune?

I suspect the admins on 2P2 shut threads down because they are paid by these sites.

Good post. This story makes me feel the same way.

Unsure of your wording here on the "told me to take my money". They allowed you to withdraw your funds or they kept your funds back in 2016? Many stories here of players on GGnetwork getting banned for bumhunting or other reason (which is completely fine) but also getting funds seized for it (which is in no way fine if its for something as ambiguous as bumhunting or generally being -EV for the ecology of the site/network etc)

However, you were told not to return to the network. You, whether on purpose or not, breached this by returning to the network. You have now broken a pretty major term of their TOS. It is up to you, as the player, to make yourself aware of the sites/networks you are playing on

Is it unfortunate that your name/details were not recognized before this? Yes, it was. However, its the same as live casinos (and other real world applications) also. You can get 86'd from a casino or casino group and told not to return. Its not like they have an automated barrier on the door preventing you from returning to that property (or a sister property), but if you get caught then you are out and maybe worse - I think someone was in a WSOP event a couple of years back that this happened to them. Same as a supermarket, if you get banned from entering, there is no system that will prevent you from coming back in. But if you get recognized once you are in there, then the police might be called, etc

GG are a private business, they can ban whoever they want. I have never been a fan of GG seizing funds from players and putting it down to bumhunting, as it is way too open to interpretation. I am completely against that. However this is a very different case, as you returned to play on the network after being told not to

A couple of years ago I won 20k in about a month playing 1/2. All was fine and had a contact with the GG rep who was giving me codes for extra RB.

One night I took a step up to 5/10 and won 10k in a couple of hours 1 tabling. Next morning my account was locked.

The made some nonsense claim about me using a VPN or unauthorised software (never even used PT in all my years of playing poker). However they did instantly send me my entire account balance via skrill and also my pro-rata RB amount via their fish buffet system.

Complete scum company. Real shame as the software and their ideas are A+.

Makes me kinda sad I can't play for the WSOP bracelets. I have considered emailing and trying to get some resolution but cba to deal with them.

Good luck.

they stole money from joe ingram too. 30k i guess
ask him !

you can play there with non regulated deposit like bitcoin
ask rob from PP about this issue, its not possible for Stars/PP etc. but gg/n8 can rofl,

how can this shady site host WSOP? cause they paid good for it.

stay aware ! ! !

GG needs to show proof that Tobias was egregiously exploitative on N8 or on their site. Otherwise keeping his full balance & the rake he contributed is much closer to theft, potentially predatory.

+1. This situation, if all facts are correct, is nothing less than theft. Contact the regulator for a start, at least.

However, I'm pretty satisfied you'll get the cash in the end, because they don't have a leg to stand on.

I really don't understand their approach to these things. Fair enough if you want to ban certain winning players for whatever reason you have but give the funds back and tell them not to return.

It is making everyone feel very unsafe about playing and having money on the site.

I will say OP given your intimate knowledge of affliates and skins. The part where you say you didn't know Natural8 and GG are the same network seems a stretch. I still think they should return the money if the rest of your post is accurate.

I agree it's a stretch to believe OP didn't know the skins were on the same network, but that doesn't change much in principle. There will people who have played both skins, and legit didn't know, yet have money confiscated.

I think you are allowed to have an account on both skins. The difference is other people weren't banned on the other skin.

I fully agree it is still wrong and I think GG has as the OP suggests freerolled him here as if he continues to lose it is all good for them and if he wins they just ban and take the funds. It seems super shady.

Edit - You can

https://help.ggpoker.com/article/200...e-natural8-etc

"f**k the pros"
-daniel negreanu, gg poker sponsored player

They never told me winning was the problem. But i assume that was the reason yes.



I´ve been talking to a bunch of guys who are paid by GG. Some couldn´t help, some wouldn´t want to help.

Everybody can decide on their own if they want to represent a site like GG..... That´s ok.




To be honest, i found out about all the skins when i started playing on Bestpoker in 2019. So it actually isnt a stretch, but i surely understand that it can look this way.

Is the software that different from 3-4 years ago? It is very distinctive now and even if I signed up to another skin without knowing it was the same network. Two minutes on the site would ring that bell.