If you lose money playing poker, doing sports betting or playing in online casinos wirholendeingeld.de will collect losses from gaming sites dating back up to 3 years at a cost of 35% commission.

If this has a significantly negative impact on online gaming sites is yet to see but if it does this will probably lead to further fracturing of the market or online gaming sites outright banning Germans (the largest EU economy).

https://translate.google.com/transla...deingeld.de%2F

Please move it elsewhere if NVG isn't the right forum.

So German players have been freerolling for years? Sweet.

Paging Boris Becker

i wonder how they can legally justify their commission model. in some or even most cases its probably cheaper than sueing with an attorney, but on their website they present themselves as helpers for the gambling addict, so profiting with 35% off someone with an illness sounds a little like usury

Haha this is the equivalent of multiple Wimbledon titles.

WTF is it for real?

sick freeroll

is it a tax recovery thing?

Maybe something to do with the T&C, (say, of PayPal and Skrill), supposedly not allowing certain gambling-related transfers of money?

No, PayPal and Skrill do gaming transfers where it's legal.

This is related to the murky waters of EU laws VS national laws and making a case that the gaming company took advantage of a gambling addict.

Apparently they had success with single cases and have now streamlined the process on a commission basis US lawyer style.

So if these suits are successful in courts this could lead to a pretty big disaster with a worst case scenario of providers pulling out from GER/EU markets right?

I guess so.

It seems too "good" to be true. One can choose to gamble online and then say: ohhh they exploited me, even tho I did everything according to TOS which I read and accepted?

I could actually see this happening. Because it brings to mind all the smokers who got lung cancer and then sued and got rewarded.

That's completely besides the point. It's illegal for german banks to process transfers to online gambling sites. This is all about deposits and nothing else. Doesn't matter, if you're winning or losing.

This may not involve the legality of the underlying gaming activity. I have not seen the referenced statute, and do not claim expertise in German law, but this may simply mirror the process where someone charges back a transaction.

The company website also looks like a mashup between two theories that arise in the US : Qui tam (recovery of gambling loss from the winner) and processing fraud recovery (recovery from the processor for fraudlent charges.)

There may be an out for operators however.... I'll know more next month after the gaming conference in Amsterdam, some German lawyers will be there.

Are you sure that was the cause of action ?

Can you link to the statute being relied upon ?

The website pitch was directed to losing players. Your view would allow all players to participate.

How is the bank supposed to know who's winning or losing lol? I don't have the nerve to go down this huge rabbit hole with you. It's a very complicated issue as I'm sure you're aware. There is German and EU legislation involved and it's still not 100% clear, what exact legislation is applicable. So far banks and credit card companies pay everything back afaik to avoid any trouble. Lawyers claiming deposits back draw upon §134BGB (banks participating in illegal activities), if that's what you want to know.

here's a somewhat informative article on the issue:

https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/pa...apers-101.html

Anyone remember Scott Crespo's attempted clawback from Illinois players in 2010.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...online-900339/

Although this website appears to be taking a more general tack to service losing players, that's what this reminds me of. It will be interesting to see whether the Germany clawback efforts are aimed exclusively at sites or cross over to individual players.

No problem, thanks.

I had gone to the website. Their website, which was translated into English oddly enough, referred to a specific German statute and emphasized it was for prospective German customers only..

Yes, the various theories for qui tam or "sore loser" recoveries have been around for 20 years or more and, sometimes, **** gets thrown against the wall just to see what sticks.

Similarly, a sore loser would sometimes chargeback legitimate charges, fraudulently claiming fraud. Things could get expensive quickly when a poker operator still had to cover those lost funds legitimately won by other, honest players AND had to defend against also paying back processors for the same amounts. (FTP itself went into the fraud business itself, kiting ACH deposits while stealing other players' funds to pay cashouts.)

OTOH, if someone really steals credit information and sticks you with a bunch of deposits you've never heard of, recovery is had on another theory which has nothing to do with whether the fraudster won or lost playing on your credit. The card issuer is liable to you and you can charge-back the fraudulent amount.

I'm not saying you're wrong (or right), but this makes no sense to me. If you're a winning player, there is no money to recover. If you deposited $1,000 to a poker site, and have since withdrawn $2,000, you've already got your money back. Or if you have $2,000 on the site, it's there for the taking any time you want. To force the site or bank to return the deposit and still allow the player to withdraw their deposited funds is ludicrous.

I don't understand, what's there to collect after you lose? Are these refunds?

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