some of the above posts reminded me of another issue with plo: if it's played shallow, it does, indeed, become a shove fest (so does holdem, so no biggie), but if it's too deep, it becomes incredibly nitty, since nobody ever stacks off without the nuts. So, there is a rather specific windown at which plo is both complex and fun, online it's around 100bb deep, hard to say about live since it plays differently

Since the game depth is very hard to enforce artificially, you will often see higher stakes plo games employ a cap, but I haven't really seen it at lower stakes (as it requires much more work from the dealers). So, you will often see games that are crazy "shovefests" as described above, but eventually, once the stacks are deep enough, they become super nitty, with the same players shoving almost any4 now straight nutpeddling

one idea I have would be implementing a "soft cap" for lower games, where you would basically be allowed to go south down to a certain amount, I haven't really seen it done, but it might be fun

So as an example at The Lodge they permit unlimited restraddles starting UTG and Match The Stack.

So what happens is the 1/2 with a $5 bring-in (which is usually the only PLO running) can be quickly turned into an 80/160 game with shallow stacks. The guys with the deepest pockets will constantly jack the game up, making it play larger. I've seen straddles get to $320 (in a game where the buyin is 200-1k)

They can continually reload and match the largest stack, so I've seen people sitting 20-30K deep in this game. The vast majority of players who sit in these games just can't bring that kind of firepower to bear (and honestly shouldn't have to in the entry-level game) and will get absolutely chewed up by the deep pocketed players who can just flip for a thousand bucks every single hand until they bust the people with shallower pockets.

It's essentially a greater benefit with match the stack for the pros and the players with deep pockets and lots of gamble to chew up the less skilled or less financially-endowed players.

I mean, it depends. I've been in a game where the max buyin was 2500 and the best pro in the room had 7 grand in front of him and a local whale had a similar stack size, both were the biggest stacks in the game at the time.

On the flop the whale hit bottom set and a gutshot straight draw, the pro top set. ALL the money went in on the flop

This same whale doubled me up on an 8-high flop in PLO when she had an overpair of 9's and I had a wrap straight draw. She couldn't understand how she lost to my "suckout"

Sounds like a great game for short-stacked player. They can pay $3/orbit to fold until they get a top starting hand, and then it is easy to get it all-in as an equity favorite. Once they win one of these pots where they have multiplied their stack by 3-6x, they can go back to NLH for an hour, and then get back into PLO with a short stack again.

If they are sitting down with $200, and go an average of 3 orbits before finding a good enough hand, they are allin for $190. Let's say it's a 4-way pot on average. With good hand selection, instead of 25% equity, they will have at least 30% equity, and probably a little bit more. Their equity in one of these allin pots is $228, so they're up $28/hour in a 1,2 game, which is pretty good. If they do the same strategy but with a $500 buyin, they'll be down to about $490 when they get allin, and have an equity of about $588. That is about $88/hour. The variance will be high, but the EV huge.

If the game is not private where correctly short staking puts you at risk of not getting into future games, then short stacking super deep/aggro games is insanely profitable. You can just get it in easy with pretty big equity edges and leverage big stakes against each other that are playing way too wide ranges.

The perception that aNy HaNd CaN wIn, It'S jUsT gAmBLinG/FLiPpiNg is exactly why PLO is so profitable.

Sure you can Rolf Slotboom the game, but the variance is even higher because now you're getting your stack in preflop typically against 4-6 other hands because in TX these guys suffer from FOMO. They see a big pot brewing they HAVE to get their chips in there because they don't want to miss out on the time their J852 would've flopped 5's full of deuces.

So you're still going to suffer through losing a bunch of those all-in spots, and when you do finally win one, you may just be getting yourself back to even or you have to hit and run the game because these guys aren't going to slow down with the straddles to 40, 80, etc.

Then you get a reputation for hitting and running, so now you have to deal with all the misregs ****-talking you the entire time you sit down, etc.

misreg gonna misreg... eff 'em. You want to keep the whales, recs, and fish happy. Let the misregs grumble and leave the game when you sit, it's better that way.

You are going to print money in deep games if the pool will only get stacks in with the nuts. When and where does this game run?

Caps are typically in place to mitigate risk IME, not to control how the game is played.

I’ve played in that game. The people pushing the 640 straddles aren’t the ones buying in for 10k. Those guys are trying to straddle to 640 on a 1k stack and just do a racehorses basically. The match stack regs buying in for 10k are nits waiting to snipe the gamblers. The reason the game turns into bingo is because people are ****ing degenerates in that game not because of match stacks.

I understand the game can be frustrating but crying about a game for being too much action is kinda laughable. I think people who find problems with a structure are usually venting their frustrations at an external source instead of focusing on what they should be i.e. fixing leaks dealing with variance better etc.

You think nitting it up with a short stack hit and running them coming back in an hour with a short stack keeps whales and recs happy?

Lol I was gonna say this. As a professional short stacker who doesn't hit and run but tries to work up a short stack to a big one I'll explain the psychology of this situation. NITs and shorties dont bother the whales because they are oblivious. Its the breakeven / slightly losing boomer whos befriended the whale that you have to worry about. Hes going to slowroll / angle or do pretty much anything he can to make you stop playing and if that doesn't work hes gonna use you as an excuse to turn the game private. Recycling or whatever the strat is Greg is talking about is mega scummy, involves basically going south and hit and running wrapped in one. If you find such a juicy game at least have the decency to abuse a couple edges and not deploy every scummy move in the book. I'd feel disgusted with myself if I won a huge hand, ran away, and then came back to the same table 90 minutes later with another short stack.

Personally I'd rather someone hit and run than sit there folding for 2 hours for appearances. And even worse is the double up "oh I just remembered I need to get my wife from the airport routine"

So while I don't care if someone hit and runs me I hate when they do it to a rec if I know it bothers them.

But hit and running then recycling with a min buy is so much worse and can absolutely poison a player pool.

The old 2+2 would have shut this stupid thread down with some good trolling.

There IS such a thing as "too much action" though. Getting stuck in a game where every pot is a flip for 1K with stacks going in pre is going to shoot your variance through the roof and those with the deepest pockets are going to win that matchup long-term.

Not to mention, this is the entry-level game of PLO in the room. So it scares off new players from entering the pool because they get chewed up and spat out too quickly without having a chance to learn the game.

A player with post-flop skill winds up giving up that edge to the degenerates who are narrowing that skill-gap by flipping coins every hand for stacks.

On top of that, it's bad to not protect the degenerates from themselves. If you're always slaughtering the sheep the games will suffer for it.

It's a situation magnified with Big O cash games. San Antonio used to be one of the hotspots for those games, but the bad players get chewed up too frequently in that format and those games have been suffering for awhile now.

It's less an issue with straight PLO, but the inclusion of unlimited restraddles and match the stack in an entry-level game in the room imo is terrible for the growth of that game and its long-term profitability..

It’s not the entry level game you keep saying that there’s a 2-2 game. People don’t like it as much so it doesn’t run often but that’s the players choice. I disagree emphatically that there can ever be too much action. The deepest pockets don’t just win in the long run just by buying in for more and gambling more if you honestly believe that you don’t understand variance. Protecting players from themselves is never the place of an institution/other players…. What you want is people to be the way you want them. It’s highly manipulative and selfish. Like I said if the game turns it’s focus more on preflop instead of post flop and you can’t beat it you probably have leaks in your preflop game that you should focus on. Games not always going to be exactly tailored to your strengths you should be able to adapt.

As for the comment that uncapped games create a situation where the sheep get slaughtered too quick that’s why I think uncapped is bad for the game. It’s not good to have a gambler run up a stack and a pro cover him and take his whole stack in one hand but that has nothing to do with bingo.

I do understand variance, which is why PLO becoming a preflop game instead of a post-flop one becomes a game that favors the deepest pockets. That's because equities run super close. Getting your stack in preflop in PLO headsup means usually at best you'll be 65/35, but more often closer to 55/45 matchups. Now toss in the FOMO people get when they see a big pot brewing and your now having to showdown against 4-5 other hands that stacked off pre and your equity shrinks up.

When you're bankrolled for 1/2/5 and the deep pockets or the maniacs are turning it into a shallow-stacked 80/160 game, well, you may win some battles, but the war will be won by the deepest pockets who can afford the massive jump in variance.

Another way to look at it is the rise in all these rebuy/re-entry tournaments with unlimited buyins for 9+ levels, allowing people to buyin to Day 2's, allowing multiple bags to carry forward in a multi-flight tourney, etc. The pros already have a skill edge over the recreational players. The introduction of all these other things further tips the scales in the favor of deep pocketed pros willing to gamble it up.

The player who enters the tournament with 1 bullet is at a massive disadvantage to the Dnegs who are willing to fire 57 bullets trying to win a bracelet. The guy firing a gazillion bullets can just take so many more spots to bluff or closer calls where in a freezeout they can't.

Likewise, multiple bags forward favors the grinders who don't have a 9-5 and can fire all the flights they want while Joe Average just doesn't have that flexibility available to them, once again, furthering the divide in favor of the professionals.


Again we disagree. It absolutely is on both accounts. A poker room has a duty to themselves to ensure that their games are sustainable and encourage growth. Players going broke and games dying off are terrible and favor short-term gains over long-term.

Likewise, professional players can be shortsighted as well. They are trying to scoop up as much money as quickly as possible that they're willing to slaughter the sheep and risk them leaving the poker economy that feeds those pros, rather than thinking long-term about the sustainability and profitability of their poker ecosystem.



We can agree on this at least.

I want to quibble with this one. You get it in for 100 heads-up as a 55:45 favorite. Your average result is to win this pot 55% of the time, for an average profit of $10. If instead you get it in for 100 in a 5-way pot, with you holding a premium hand and them holding 4 random-ish hands, your equity will be at least 25%. While you only win 25% of the time, your average profit is now $25. Your chances of winning each pot is shrinking up, but your equity is increasing (as is your variance).

If the deepest pockets are just gamblers, then a smart player with a short bankroll can use this game to become a player with a big bankroll. There will be a lot of variance on the way, but they will be the long-term winner.

The issue is the massive increase in variance. If a player is rolled for 1/2/5 PLO and the game is continually playing with straddles to 40, 80, etc. and lots of preflop all-ins for 800-1K at a pop, it's just also likely they'll get crushed by the variance and become a player with no bankroll than they'll get on the positive side of variance in 4-6 way all-in pots preflop and suddenly have a big bankroll.

I've put in thousands of hours starting with short-stacking and now playing short in big games and deeper in small games and this has not been my experience at all. Either outcome is not "just as likely," it's much more likely the smart player will win in the long term simply due to the odds favoring him in all of these all in scenarios.

Now short term variance is another story and all this assumes someone is properly rolled for the game. If the player cannot afford to play in that type of straddle game he should not play.

But this thread is about which game is harder, not about variance in plo. If you are arguing the variance makes plo harder, so be it. I would agree with that.

I don't get the ridiculous amount of resistance I'm getting here. A 1/2/5 game that is getting restraddled to 10/20/40/80/160/320 and allows match the stacks where you'll find people sitting with 8k, 12K, 20k, 30k, etc. is NOT a 1/2/5 game anymore, so expecting the average player to be "properly rolled" to handle the ridiculous variance of having a 5-10% equity edge for stacks to me is bonkers.

It's the room catering to the deepest pockets to absolutely murder anyone trying to play the entry level game/stakes.

I never said that particular game configuration was ideal for most people, it surely isn’t. I just thought the discussion was getting a little off topic that’s all.

If you want to complain to the room about their rules I’m sure you are free to do so. There may be other card houses who don’t permit this sort of thing and they’ll gladly take your business.

If a player is properly rolled they should love the opportunity to play in these types of games, however, if they can emotionally handle the swings that come with the territory. That’s what really makes plo harder imo, is the ability to withstand losing a lot more often. Some might say it takes particularly resilient people to play it.

What happens if I sit down with $1000 and don't straddle?

It’s some of the things you are saying are not consistent more than your overall point. The variance is a lot higher in the lodge games than other games because of the straddles and player pool. It requires more money to be properly rolled in that game than others of similar stakes. These are all perfectly valid arguments. If you said that no one would have any issues with you. Saying the games aren’t beatable or winning players are screwed because the biggest bankroll will always win is not accurate and incredibly dangerous and irresponsible for an influencer to say. People stop playing and assume poker is rigged because of baseless claims. I don’t know how many people I’ve met in my life who won’t play online poker because they think it’s rigged but it’s way more than I ever thought it’d be for sure.

Saying in the long run someone playing losing poker will always win just because their bankroll is bigger is not right. Long run = Enough time so variance is mitigated. In the long run everyone gets to their expected win rates. Match the stack isn’t causing the high variance the straddles and preflop action is. Saying the games aren’t beatable or implying that is laughable. It’s just a game you would prefer not to play which is perfectly fine and understandable. You are distorting concepts or not understanding them to fit your narrative.

Nothing. Plenty of people don’t straddle and most just put the $10. Sometimes the game gets a group where a lot of straddles get going. It used to be more common but isn’t even that common anymore I think. Most those people play private/home games now. In those games some of the players might harass you to straddle but obviously can’t force you.

I don't really play PLO, but I think it's a bit like NL MTTs where it's exponentially harder to study spots such that you frequently remember them from your solver work, when compared to NL cash games.