I'd rather win

I don't know which takes more skill overall (good arguments for both sides) but NLHE is boring af to me these days and every spot seems so mundane and explored. Even with the multiple sizings and mixed combo actions. PLO is a breath of fresh air for me feels like I'm learning poker all over again. Of course this is because I only started playing like three months ago so I'm biased lol. I actually legit have fun even when I lose like 15 buyins in a PLO session. Can't say the same for when I'm winning an NLHE session.

but **** man NLHE is sooooo god damn boring now I mean it's torture. Especially with everyone just copying the solver and trying to play GTO. What a pointless snoozefeast.

I know the same endpoint will exist for PLO as well eventually but at least for now it's less solved and less people playing GTO and that's what matters to me. Even if the GTO solutions exist there's less readily available RTA for PLO and such and it seems like people haven't spent as much time on learning the nuances compared to hold 'em.

P.S. anyone that says PLO is just bingo is a moron lol. tell that to Phil ****in' Galfond.

The best player in the game doesnt even want to play that game full ring. Great advertisement for the skill factor of the game indeed.

It's a much better game short handed. So is (shoot me in the face) hold em. But that doesn't make it bingo. Of course guys who don't understand plo strategy at all and can't can't handle the swings want to proclaim it bingo.

Name 1 crusher that wants to play 9 handed.

Haven’t been following thread with an eagle eye but is there anyone saying that a crusher would prefer to play 9 handed as opposed to with less players?

PLO makes me tilt way harder since I feel like everything is a flip lol

No but someone tried to make the case that bc Galfond doesn't like 8/9 handed plo that makes it bingo.

Ok thanks I get the context now

2-7SD is the hardest big bet game. And the coolers in that game are actual coolers.

No it’s not and not even in the ballpark imo

Only two streets and closed hand game

I’ve never played but wouldn’t it be tougher to read hands with a closed handed game?

No much simpler than when dealing with all the different flops

A smart person could probably spend a month or two in excel and put a serious dent into the game. But you need software for nlhe/plo

It’s like we were debating which Major League Baseball was the best and someone brought a Minor League Team like Clearwater Phillies into the discussion. At least that’s what it seems like to me

Every game is "hard" if you don't have a training site feeding you how to play properly.

Antonius playing on full ring PLO stream at Kings Casino recently.

Phil playing a full ring plo tourney. At 15:00 “a lot more light hearted than your average $10k no limit hold ‘em tournament at the World Series.”

As Phil said himself at the end of the video, he doesn't fully understand how to play pre flop in tournaments.

The main thing he is not doing properly is he is not thinking about stack sizes enough pre.

He is also over analysing what his opponent might have pre when thinking about what he should do pre.
Example, the first hand in the video. He said it could be a fold pre.

It is 100% a call pre, and never a raise and this is regardless of the opener's range.

It is all down to relative stack sizes and the playability of Phil's hand in position.

But this is pretty typical of many great cash PLO game players. A lot of them don't understand some areas of PLO tournament play.

Post flop, he seems to be very good at knowing when to bet and how much, but relatively poor at knowing when to call when it is calling a big bet,
which he also acknowledged, that some of his calls may have been wrong. His getting some of the calls wrong is because he doesn't intuitively
know the ICM value of his stack and is not considering its value. You have to consider this as part of the decision to call or not, as well as if you think
you are ahead of course and from this weigh up the risk versus reward of making the call. By not considering your stack's ICM value, regardless of whether you are in or near the money or not, you will be making a lot of bad calls.

Phil's middle of each hand game in PLO MTTs is super strong, but pre flop and sometimes on the river it is weak to average, meaning he will make some errors.

Which is harder PLO MTTs or NLHE MTTs?

For me, it's a similar answer to the cash game question. PLO MTTs require a lot of intuitive and natural ability analytical skills, plus some learning.
NLHE MTTs require a lot of learning, and a little bit of intuitive and natural ability skills.

So it's a tie again.

Cash game NLH is harder
Tournament PLO is harder.

Just my personal opinion i find NLH cash games so nitty in Europe where as PLO the action and game softness is always good. Tournaments are far more suited to NLH with the escalating blinds that force the action. That equation changes slightly if you have access to US holdem cash games as you have such a massive pool of easy games and don't even realise how good you have it compared to the ROW.

HU NL and PLO are both very high skill cap games.

6max NL is a high skill cap game.

6max PLO is a joke, very easy to learn at which point the game becomes almost bingo unless there is a huge whale on the table.

Kinda too vague a question to give a good answer. I assume you’re talking about live 8-9handed 100-200bbish deep games that you are comparing. If that’s the case plo is way simpler because it’s more multi-way spots which everyone should play very straightforward (even if someone is playing terrible you still should play really straightforward and not adjust much just print off his mistakes) and mainly preflop/flop maybe turn decisions or simple river decisions which are less complex trees then river decisions.

Issue is plo games generally play MUCH deeper and if you get in tougher games you get short handed or less multi-way type scenarios and game gets kinda complex especially against tough opponents.

In general I don't think the format of game is as important to how tough a game is as how many people are in the hand on average (more people in more simplistic it gets because less you should deviate from a fixed strategy) and how high SPR is (higher SPR is more complex because more complex decision trees).

Funny this part hasn't been mentioned more. A huge consideration of the difficulty of a game comes down to how comparatively good the overall player pool is. It's that classic "if you're the eighth best player in the world and you're at a table with..." scenario. I'm sure it's also one of the key strategic factors in a dealer's choice tournament.

Reminds me of a local swimmer who qualified for the 2012 Olympics in what had generally been his worst stroke. Only two people advanced from the Trials to London per event. But in his best events, some guy named Michael Phelps was a lock to take one of the two slots.

That's not really the question - we're talking about what game is the hardest assuming matching skill levels in all games, otherwise there's really nothing to debate.

Live plo games are softer than live nlhe games on average, so slightly relevant.

The fact that all people have to say about PLO is that it is all flips..

..is why it is so much better than NLH.

Imagine listening to a bunch of complaints about a NLH game where everyone called every bet PF and was AI multiway on the flop.

Sounds like a dream game, a game where a little patience and discipline will print money.

Knowing how to maneuver around flips is the art of poker.

If you only see the flips and gambling, you are the fish.