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Old 08-25-2011, 10:10 PM   #3401
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Angry Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread (links to old threads in OP, FTP pays fees to AGCC)

After reading the 'solongdue' description of conditions within Pocket Kings, I gave it a lot of thought. I have seen a lot of companies w disfunctional managements and the scenes described about food, hostile HR exec, & incompetent CFO is a classic description of what you have when a badly managed company is going down in flames.

Only an idiot serves the executive suite lobster & steak while the cafeteria serves lasagna.

Given the financial meltdown and lack of player account data to effect reimbursement, even if the CFO is your brother ... he gets fired.

In these sort of extreme conditions realists understand that the management has to be changed, if only for the fact that the new management has to make a deal with the DOJ and only a "new team" will get any kind of a break, if at all. The entire old management are toast. If the old management wants to stay, like the captain on a sinking ship, .... the ship will sink, never to reappear.

This is not unique to Pocket Kings. Bad management and iconoclastic behaviour where management believe they are more important than the investors is classic in American corporate behaviour and increasingly continental (Britain included) corporate behaviour. I am dismayed, but not surprised, that the established management is trying to cut a deal where they keep their positions. To anyone with normal business acumen, there is no way the current management can stay on, if only for the U.S. DOJ negotiations that are next on the menu for anyone buying Pocket Kings.

This is why there is no deal for buying FullTilt. The old management is clinging to the idea they are something special. They are right, ... they ARE something special, but not in a good way. Even if they were the best management team on the planet, new investors mean a new team and any deal insisting on the old team will never fly.

As the Full Tilt carcass rots on the beach, eventually an investor will buy the remains (without the management team who have finally left the ship for dry land) and with hard work could well revive the brand to a portion of its former glory.

Bad management is nothing special ... it happens every day ... but in this case the deal is being stalled by personal interests taking precedence over good business sense.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:19 PM   #3402
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

The questions are all those we would like to see answered, but it is impossible that he is/they are going to answer most of them. But may be that is the point: if you want some answers, ask a lot of sharp questions about a lot of delicate matters and may be you will get something...
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:20 PM   #3403
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

Hey hash or Noah, if you can still get in touch with Ifrah, can you ask if FTP can at least somehow conduct partial payments? Thanks and thanks for your work guys.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:21 PM   #3404
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Angry Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

Hash1982, Great questions which if answered will immediately define Pocket Kings as either a legit company in trouble due to circumstances or a shell game from day one.

The fact that all evidence to date points to financial incompetence on an epic scale supports the requirement that the executive management has to be swept out for any prospective buyer IMHO.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:23 PM   #3405
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahSD View Post
Still hoping someone steps up and linkifies eyescrew's cliffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EYESCREW View Post
You're welcome Noah

Link to cliffs of FTP scandal
?
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:26 PM   #3406
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

No links. I could just use that, but since it'll probably be stickied in NVG for months, I figure it might as well have links.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:34 PM   #3407
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread (links to old threads in OP, FTP pays fees to AGCC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by flintsword View Post
Only an idiot serves the executive suite lobster & steak while the cafeteria serves lasagna.
They might be some truth in some of Solongdue's comments but really he just sound like some disgruntled employee taking a shot at the people he didn't like. The bit about lasagna and Lobster sound a bit like fairy tell to me. I mean...come on. Do the people serving Lobster had to be black and walk on their knees too?

May be the whole thing is true, but there has been so many fake FTP employees talking BS over the last few months it's hard to know what's true or not. In any case that doesn't give us any infos on the DOJ, investor and so on situation.

looking forward to read what Ifrah has to say.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:36 PM   #3408
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

Noah were you referring to putting links to the references I used? I sp I could add those in a few hours when I get back home.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:37 PM   #3409
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

Oh. Yeah. I guess I can't just make up words and expect people to know what they mean..
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:42 PM   #3410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahSD View Post
Oh. Yeah. I guess I can't just make up words and expect people to know what they mean..
I should have been able to figure out what you meant. Just making a link out of the post could have been done by anyone.

Anyway, when I get home from the gym I'll redo it with links added.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:42 PM   #3411
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

Cliffs:

April 15th Black Friday - The Department of Justice shuts down US operations of FTP, Pokerstars and UB. App

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...w-doj-1020642/

http://news.bluffmagazine.com/doj-ch...h-fraud-20133/

April 26th - Pokerstars allows US players to cash out but Full Tilt Poker does not allow US players access to their funds. As reported by Pokeraddict.net.

http://www.osga.com/artman/publish/article_9259.shtml

May 31st - The WSOP starts and a few team FTP pros showed like Allen Cunningham, John Juanda and Erick Lindgren but notably absent were Phil Ivey, Chris Ferguson and Howard Lederer.

http://www.gambling911.com/poker/unl...op-061311.html

June 1st - Phil Ivey sues Full Tilt poker in an effort to get out of his non-compete clause. It was reported by Wicked Chops that Ivey was particularly upset because he had brought in an investor that would have got FTP out of their financial mess but the deal was nixed by Bitar and Lederer.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...s-ftp-1046045/

June 26th - It's reported Phil Ivey is in Dublin meeting with FTP executives.

http://www.subjectpoker.com/2011/06/...-headquarters/

June 29th - Alderney Gambling Control Commission suspends FTP's gaming license and in effect shuts FTP down.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...alted-1059820/

July 1st - Todd terry files a class action lawsuit against FTP. (this date is approximate. Sorry for not being sure of exact date)

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...poker-1061172/

July 22nd - Poker News Daily reported that Phil Gordon was dismissed with prejudice from Todd Terry's class action lawsuit against FTP. Phil Gordon's attorney claimed he didn't take part in the day to day operations of FTP.

http://www.pokernewsdaily.com/phil-g...lawsuit-19621/

July 26th - As reported by Pokernews there was a hearing between FTP and the AGCC to determine whether FTP's gaming license should continue to be suspended. It was supposed to be a public hearing but in private lawyers for FTP asked for an application to adjourn the meeting until a later date which was granted. The new hearing date was set to be September 15th.

http://www.quadjacks.com/2011/07/27/...ugh-the-hippy/

July 29th - Subjectpoker.com releases a statement talking about some of the financial dealings between David Benyamine, Phil Ivey and FTP.

http://www.subjectpoker.com/2011/07/ivey-benyamine/

July 29th - Mike Matusow does and interview with Quad Jacks and talks a bit about the FTP situation.

http://www.quadjacks.com/2011/07/30/...day-july-29th/

August 1st - As reported by Subject Poker the Kahnawake gaming commission agreed to renew FTP's secondary client provider authorization.

http://www.subjectpoker.com/2011/08/...s-ftps-permit/

August 18th - As reported by Stayonpoker.com a second class action lawsuit against FTP has been filed by two Canadian players.

http://www.recentpoker.com/news/full...suit-2573.html

August 22nd - FTP's silence is finally broken when attorney Jeff Ifrah speaks out and gives some minor details about the FTP situation. Certain 2+2ers have spoken with him on the phone and been corresponding back and forth through emails with the attorney. Ifrah reported he was finally able to speak about the situation because an exclusivity agreement between a potential investor and FTP expired.

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2011/0...tors-10893.htm

September 15th - Scheduled hearing date between FTP and the Alderney Gambling Control Commission to determine whether FTP's gaming license will be renewed and allowing them to again service non-US based customers.

This says it all no need to link IMO.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:45 PM   #3412
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by EYESCREW View Post
Cliffs:

If I leave anything out please refrain from calling me a 'tard and instead let me know what I missed and I'll happily make additions or changes.

April 15th Black Friday - The Department of Justice shuts down US operations of FTP, Pokerstars and UB. App

April 26th - Pokerstars allows US players to cash out but Full Tilt Poker does not allow US players access to their funds. As reported by Pokeraddict.net.

May 31st - The WSOP starts and a few team FTP pros showed like Allen Cunningham, John Juanda and Erick Lindgren but notably absent were Phil Ivey, Chris Ferguson and Howard Lederer.

June 1st - Phil Ivey sues Full Tilt poker in an effort to get out of his non-compete clause. It was reported by Wicked Chops that Ivey was particularly upset because he had brought in an investor that would have got FTP out of their financial mess but the deal was nixed by Bitar and Lederer.

June 26th - It's reported Phil Ivey is in Dublin meeting with FTP executives.

June 29th - Alderney Gambling Control Commission suspends FTP's gaming license and in effect shuts FTP down.

July 1st - Todd terry files a class action lawsuit against FTP. (this date is approximate. Sorry for not being sure of exact date)

July 22nd - Poker News Daily reported that Phil Gordon was dismissed with prejudice from Todd Terry's class action lawsuit against FTP. Phil Gordon's attorney claimed he didn't take part in the day to day operations of FTP.

July 26th - As reported by Pokernews there was a hearing between FTP and the AGCC to determine whether FTP's gaming license should continue to be suspended. It was supposed to be a public hearing but in private lawyers for FTP asked for an application to adjourn the meeting until a later date which was granted. The new hearing date was set to be September 15th.

July 29th - Subjectpoker.com releases a statement talking about some of the financial dealings between David Benyamine, Phil Ivey and FTP.

July 29th - Mike Matusow does and interview with Quad Jacks and talks a bit about the FTP situation.

August 1st - As reported by Subject Poker the Kahnawake gaming commission agreed to renew FTP's secondary client provider authorization.

August 18th - As reported by Stayonpoker.com a second class action lawsuit against FTP has been filed by two Canadian players.

August 22nd - FTP's silence is finally broken when attorney Jeff Ifrah speaks out and gives some minor details about the FTP situation. Certain 2+2ers have spoken with him on the phone and been corresponding back and forth through emails with the attorney. Ifrah reported he was finally able to speak about the situation because an exclusivity agreement between a potential investor and FTP expired.

September 15th - Scheduled hearing date between FTP and the Alderney Gambling Control Commission to determine whether FTP's gaming license will be renewed and allowing them to again service non-US based customers.


Again please feel free to add anything that I have missed. I did my best given the short amount of time I had to gather info.
..

Last edited by AnAnonymousCoward; 08-25-2011 at 10:47 PM. Reason: slow poaster is slow
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:59 PM   #3413
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond_Flush View Post
If the answers to those particular questions actually get posted on the FTP website, then it will confirm that FTP is now being run by aliens from another planet.
I woke up just to have a laugh at that one......

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
Get some sleep. After reading Noah's questions, there will never be a straight answer coming from a lawyer to these. In fact, if he gives a straight answer FTP should seek to have him disbarred.
Right on....guess the over under is 95%-5% I get to have sex this week...


Quote:
Originally Posted by MICK E JUICE View Post
Hope its not the same aliens from E.T.'s planet.
Nothin will change ffs...it took him ages to get through to "customer service" to get him home.

btw good job a SP!!

Naw, for the first time they are paying someone $500/hr for customer service - at those rates the usual response time should go from the old 7 days to 24hrs!
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Old 08-25-2011, 11:22 PM   #3414
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread (links to old threads in OP, FTP pays fees to AGCC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by flintsword View Post
......Bad management is nothing special ... it happens every day ... but in this case the deal is being stalled by personal interests taking precedence over good business sense.
True, but the investor, who brings in a new team, faces many problems - first - they don't know where all the bodies are buried - realistically, you have to assume the real possibility of serious other nefarious activity (whether it happend or didn't) inside of FTP - it may or may not be the case, but as an outsider, no one is going to be straight with you - the employees want to all keep their jobs and so they will lie and the old ones being fired dont want to risk telling you anything because they fear potential reprisal (or even criminal action). Even if there was no further issues, there will be those things that you will still not learn about until you take over the business (which could be harmful) - because you will be removing all the key people - and you dont know how important those people were to the success of the business - it might sound strange, but even bad people can produce great results while at the same time causing serious harm to the business - its an oxymoron that happens all the time under bad managements. This was one issue that we have never brought up before and it was another reason why we were skeptical of a deal - however, you always find those investors who think they can overcome these issues, so we did consider the possibility that FTP might have hooked one. Finally, you are always taking a big risk taking over a business and bringing in a new management team, it adds a whole new layer of risk to the purchase, normally you always want the founders team to stay on with the business, but as pointed out thats almost impossible here.

In cases like this, really the only buyer that can handle these issues effectively is a competitor and their team who absorbs the entire business under their operation. Given that, the ideal strategy would envolve a smaller but growing poker site, who together with a large round of PE funding to acquire the assets and rebrand the business, but given the long period of closure, that strategy is likely hard to achieve now as many investors will be skeptical that players will return to a newly branded FTP. This way you keep the experienced senior management of the old business and can more easily remove the top end of PK. It would still be risky, but this minimizes the risk slightly. People wonder why investors dont see FTP as being worth all this money - but they fail to understand all the complexities of acquiring someone else's company and having to toss out the entire senior management team and this combined with all the other myriad of issues facing the company - it really diminishes the value of the business significantly when you have these sorts of problems.
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Old 08-26-2011, 12:22 AM   #3415
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

Links added. Thanks guys!
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Old 08-26-2011, 12:44 AM   #3416
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread (links to old threads in OP, FTP pays fees to AGCC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LedaSon View Post
Finally, you are always taking a big risk taking over a business and bringing in a new management team, it adds a whole new layer of risk to the purchase, normally you always want the founders team to stay on with the business, but as pointed out thats almost impossible here.
BS... sorry...Every takeover I have ever seen (or lived through) has always brought it's own management.
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Old 08-26-2011, 12:44 AM   #3417
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

THREAD WILL BE LOCKED SOONISH. POST IN THIS THREAD INSTEAD.
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Old 08-26-2011, 01:09 AM   #3418
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

For a lot of the external link you have here, the original source of the story was actually 2+2 itself, not the external news media linked to, I have updated some below:

Quote:
July 22nd - Poker News Daily reported that Phil Gordon was dismissed with prejudice from Todd Terry's class action lawsuit against FTP. Phil Gordon's attorney claimed he didn't take part in the day to day operations of FTP.

http://www.pokernewsdaily.com/phil-g...lawsuit-19621/
Source for this story is diamond_flush updates on class action:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...84&postcount=4

Quote:
July 26th - As reported by Pokernews there was a hearing between FTP and the AGCC to determine whether FTP's gaming license should continue to be suspended. It was supposed to be a public hearing but in private lawyers for FTP asked for an application to adjourn the meeting until a later date which was granted. The new hearing date was set to be September 15th.

http://www.quadjacks.com/2011/07/27/...ugh-the-hippy/
AGCC PR links original sources:

http://www.gamblingcontrol.org/userf...2020110516.pdf
http://www.gamblingcontrol.org/userf...n%20290611.pdf
http://www.gamblingcontrol.org/userf...2020110703.pdf
http://www.gamblingcontrol.org/userf...2020110712.pdf


Quote:
August 1st - As reported by Subject Poker the Kahnawake gaming commission agreed to renew FTP's secondary client provider authorization.

http://www.subjectpoker.com/2011/08/...s-ftps-permit/
Original source, KGC PR:
http://www.gamingcommission.ca/news/pr07292011c.pdf

Quote:
August 18th - As reported by Stayonpoker.com a second class action lawsuit against FTP has been filed by two Canadian players.

http://www.recentpoker.com/news/full...suit-2573.html
Funnily, this was on 2p2 days before any other media site. It was only covered on other sites because it was covered on EGR, and EGR covered it because it appeared on pokerfuse earlier that morning.

http://pokerfuse.com/news/law-legisl...nst-full-tilt/

Which does contain some original analysis but the original "source" is diamond_flush in this very thread with a link to the suit:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1827

Quote:
September 15th - Scheduled hearing date between FTP and the Alderney Gambling Control Commission to determine whether FTP's gaming license will be renewed and allowing them to again service non-US based customers.

This says it all no need to link IMO.
AGCC PR original source:

http://www.gamblingcontrol.org/userf...t%20270711.pdf
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Old 08-26-2011, 01:12 AM   #3419
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

oh guess i am too late
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Old 08-26-2011, 01:13 AM   #3420
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Re: Full Tilt chatter containment thread

I don't think either you or I should choose which links to use, so I outsourced it.

GG containment thread.
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